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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Breville Oracle...  
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
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Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 6:41am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

It isn't snobery, it is the fact that a home appliance maker is trying to make a name as a reputable manufacturer of high end espresso equipment, this is a hard thing to do, they have a high hurdle to overcome as their reputation is that of a disposable appliance maker. They have had significant issues with quality and in a lot of opinions they have failed to make their case that that they have achieved their goal.

I have nothing against anyone who buys their equipment, nor against the equipment it's self, rather I do not fall for the hype, it is a disposable home machine. If one buys their machine with the understanding of what they are buying, that is their business and may it last as long as they hoped it would. Until they turn their rep around though, I will continue to warn buyers about what they are considering, if they choose to continue, fine. I have received many emails thanking me for the warning, people who have gone on to buy quality gear then get to try a Breville product are glad they invested in quality not consumer grade equipment.

For a lot of people consumer is good enough, that is a wonderful thing, no question, but to buy consumer and think that it is high end, is folly that a shopper should understand before purchase, there have been too many people hurt in this hobby, people who do not understand what they are getting into, there are lots of department store machines that are woefully bad and the maker of the BDB is one of the biggest offenders in this. YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 734
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 7:02am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

barjohn Said:

It seems funny to me that there is this snobbery against the Breville dual boiler machines when I can read post after post about problems with high end Italian made machines as well as machines made in other countries of Europe.... I haven't read of other company's providing the level of customer support that Breville is providing and as an engineer, looking at their design, it appears to be elegant and extremely functional.  I don't expect more.  If it breaks and they take care of it quickly, then I will be satisfied.

Posted January 16, 2014 link

+1

BDL
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 7:16am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

Not new news here BDL, we have been at odds on this particular topic for, well, always :D ;D  Everyone, have a wonderful day :D

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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GlowingGhoul
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Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Location: East Coast
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 9:15am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

I just looked at the manual for the Oracle online.

Wow.

You have full control over so many parameters...tamp pressure, polish duration, even the speed of the cooling fan!

Maintenance seems to have been well thought through as well, vs the BDB.

Say what you will about Breville, but they certainly seem to be listening to what people want.

They're making huge progress in a short amount of time. Italian machine and Swiss superauto companies have good reason to fear Breville.
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barjohn
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barjohn
Joined: 1 May 2004
Posts: 155
Location: San Clemente, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Oracle
Grinder: Breville Oracle
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 12:00pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

One only needs to look at how long it took the European companies to incorporate the simplest technology advances such as PIDs.  Most of them have been slow to incorporate computer controls.  The reasons are varied but are often grounded in fear that consumers will not like the products if they are non-traditional even though the traditions aren't really that old.  Look at grinders, it took a long time before electronic timers were added to control dosage and it is only recently that a prosumer machine offered weight based measures.  Baratza is a US design built in Taiwan.  They are clearly moving up the quality ladder as represented in the new Forte models.  Really no different than what Breville is doing when they moved up to the double boiler models.

 
John

Veritas en Trashitas
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

Enjoy!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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GlowingGhoul
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Location: East Coast
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

calblacksmith Said:

It isn't snobery, it is the fact that a home appliance maker is trying to make a name as a reputable manufacturer of high end espresso equipment, this is a hard thing to do, they have a high hurdle to overcome as their reputation is that of a disposable appliance maker. They have had significant issues with quality and in a lot of opinions they have failed to make their case that that they have achieved their goal.

I have nothing against anyone who buys their equipment, nor against the equipment it's self, rather I do not fall for the hype, it is a disposable home machine. If one buys their machine with the understanding of what they are buying, that is their business and may it last as long as they hoped it would. Until they turn their rep around though, I will continue to warn buyers about what they are considering, if they choose to continue, fine. I have received many emails thanking me for the warning, people who have gone on to buy quality gear then get to try a Breville product are glad they invested in quality not consumer grade equipment.

For a lot of people consumer is good enough, that is a wonderful thing, no question, but to buy consumer and think that it is high end, is folly that a shopper should understand before purchase, there have been too many people hurt in this hobby, people who do not understand what they are getting into, there are lots of department store machines that are woefully bad and the maker of the BDB is one of the biggest offenders in this. YMMV!

Posted January 16, 2014 link

It seems to me that most machines require a level of maintenance and repair that take them out of the class of a normal consumer appliance, like a toaster oven which is expected to work without intervention for many years.

I think the only thing that differentiates Breville from other machines (once the initial glitches were engineered out) is there proprietary repair process. I un derstand not being able to replace a valve or sensor at home does not sit well with more certain users, but I believe most people end up shipping off their machines for repair, or at the least take it to a local shop if one exists.

I'm not aware of anyone (in the US) who Breville hasn't taken care of in the case of defects, even out of warranty.

Are you?
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 2:43pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

EDIT:
Chris, nice change of your post to say something completely different after it was posted :D
So you are saying it is an INFERIOR consumer class appliance which requires a high level of maintenance and repair?

It is how the machine is constructed and the quality of the parts inside that put it in a class, SS foil wrapping the outside of the machine over a plastic panel does not replace a solid sheet of SS for toughness of service. A plastic frame does not hold up to the rigors of abusive commercial service.  They make a home appliance. If you are OK with that, fantastic but no matter how much you may wish it to be something else, it will not change the fact it is a home appliance..... regardless of the level of maintenance it requires.
End edit.

We have had members who have had 5 replacement machines, under warranty, if that does not smack of low quality control, what does?

As to Europe and "feet dragging", we, espresso geeks are a VERY small segment of the market, it is WE who are using machines designed for COMMERCIAL service, sometimes when a person gets deep into a hobby, it is easy to loose perspective of just how small the group of fans are.

Breville is a consumer appliance maker, THEIR goal is to capture a bit of the market, their machines will NEVER be put into commercial service, they are just not built stout enough to face 24/7 work cycles.

If one of their machines works for you WONDERFUL!! GREAT! FANTASTIC! Just don't expect it to be as durable or to last like a commercial machine will, they are not made to the same standard.

If a person can let go of tech that really is not needed if you understand your equipment and know how to use it, then the same money spent for a home appliance will buy a much better built prosumer/light commercial machine which is built more strongly and has commercial sanitation ratings such as NSF or ETL. A home appliance will never go through the tough and costly process of certification, it would be an extra expense, they are not designed for such service.

This is true for  Baratza too, while their home equipment may work great for limited use such as in a home, with a grind quality that some say, rival that of commercial grinders, it is still a home appliance and would quickly fail under commercial service, it is not designed for that, it is designed for home duty, a few drinks a day, no more. They have FANTASTIC customer service and I would say much better than Breville but commercial it is not.

Again, if your needs are met by a Breville, more power to you and may you live long and have a smooth life. However just remember that it is built to starter/home grade equipment standards, regardless of the goodies or flashing lights on it. If you are fine with that GREAT!

YMMV!

Enjoy :D

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Iluvdabean
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Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,217
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

I see Breville as a major appliance company who wanted a piece of the market. They are famous for toasters,blenders and electric can openers. So they
jumped into the market with an engineers plans,Chinese labor and have continuously been in the Beta-Mode. The people who have bought them have had numerous
problems,a lot more than the average Italian machines. Not to mention the fact that an Italian machine has a huge parts base and knowledgeable  people who are willing
to assist in helping a person fix their own machine if something does happen. So the consumer becomes the Beta tester in the Breville business plan and as a reward Breville offers a
ridiculously liberal replacement policy. Many on the Breville forum are on the third machine. They improve as best they can here and there but what they are lacking is the Italian heritage and
track record spanning many many years. Italian old world craftsmanship vs an assembly line in China. I also wish Breville people good luck and many many years of
espresso. Yet I still feel it is necessary to let new prospective buyers know that there are potential quality control and design issues that deserve consideration.
My first Breville experience was a nightmare. I came here after I put it in a box and returned it.
I asked people here what to do. I humbled myself and accepted the consensus of opinion and got started on the right foot.  For a lot of people a thousand dollars is a lot
of money and they need a machine that will last,is fixable at home,and is mainstream. Is Breville that machine? Not so far at least from what I can see.


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weebit_nutty
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weebit_nutty
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Posts: 233
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Espresso: Cremina 67 Lever,  LCM HX
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Posted Thu Jan 16, 2014, 9:02pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

calblacksmith Said:

This is true for  Baratza too, while their home equipment may work great for limited use such as in a home, with a grind quality that some say, rival that of commercial grinders, it is still a home appliance and would quickly fail under commercial service, it is not designed for that, it is designed for home duty, a few drinks a day, no more. They have FANTASTIC customer service and I would say much better than Breville but commercial it is not.

Posted January 16, 2014 link

Not to sidetrack the conversation but since you've made this point, I have to ask about the Forte which Baratza claims are fit for commercial duty (albeit on a light duty cycle given the smaller capacity). Looking at the improvements,  it appears Baratza has really stepped up their game and the MSRP at $899 for this model has pierced the clouds into the commercial altitude.  Not to suggest price always equals quality but the changes are quite drastic over their next model down.
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