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Jura Super Automatic to Semi-Auto Quick Mill Silvano?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Jura Super...  
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eieio
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Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 31
Location: New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat May 4, 2013, 10:01pm
Subject: Jura Super Automatic to Semi-Auto Quick Mill Silvano?
 

Dear All:

I understand that many enthusiasts on a site like this one would scoff at a Super Automatic espresso maker.  On the other hand, this type/category just might suit my needs.  I'll explain and hopefully receive some advice from the good folks here on this forum.

One person, approximately one to two 12-ounce Decaf Americano (very strong decaf Americano preferred) per day (or cafe crema:  Americano and cafe crema are simiar, so i understand), so rather low volume/usage per day.  I add a little half and half to the 12-ounce decaf Americano, no sugar.   I prefer the half and half over steamed or frothed milk.  It is possible that I might change over time, but for many many years now, my preference is Americano with half and half.

decaf only.   regular beans very rarely.

home environment, single user - a careful, single user  ;)

I've been told by a trusted friend that his Saeco Royal Professional has been extremely reliable for 4,000 cups!  On the other hand, as i do not expect to use the milk frothing function extensively at all, i feel that the "One Touch" or any machine with included milk frothing built-in (automatically) would be too much complications built in for my specific needs, as i do not expect to use the automated milk frothing much at all (more components, features that i don't expect to use often - more to break).   i can always froth manually with these machines.

Essentially, i'm looking for a very very high performing Super Automatic without the "One Touch" built-in milk frothing automation, for a low volume (2 cups of 12-ounce Americano per day).

When I looked around, I discovered that an older model, the Jura J6, seems to have most of the features i'm seeking:

-  it has 4 strength settings (up to extra strong).  Jura's fanciest machines only add an extra mild to it, which is irrelevant for me as i want it to be extra strong.

-  it has roughly 6 grind settings.

-  it has roughly 3 temperature settings.

Negatives include:

-  some seem to say that this unit might not brew sufficiently hot (i'm unsure of that)

-  burr grinder difficult to clean if using oily beans (i think almost every super automatic has that issue)

-  this J6 machine is at least 5 years old (approx).  is there that much of a downside to buying a 5-year old piece of technology?  Maybe the newest Jura machines have advances that make them more robust?  Longer mean times between service needs arise?   I do not know, but it might be the case.  On the other hand, brewing coffee surely hasn't changed much at all, if any at all, in the last many decades, so buying a 5-year old piece of technology in the coffee making field ought not be a serious downside, right?   Maybe the display is merely a one line red LED display -- very meager compared with what is common today:  a 3"x4" LCD display with more obviously, clear, graphics.   Then again, this is surely a minor quibble.


There does not appear to be any professional or thorough reviews.  May I ask for advice on whether or not to stick with looking at Jura machines, which model(s)?  or Saeco?  or...?

Thank you in advance.
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SStones
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SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 474
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Sun May 5, 2013, 7:37pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

If you want to use a super auto espresso maker to make 12 ounce americanos, you're looking at running a lot of water through the grounds long after they're done extracting the good parts of the drink.  Whichever has the larger brew chamber is going to produce the less distasteful cupful.  Super autos have a brew chamber smaller than a traditional espresso machine(Assuming that the 58mm portafilter is traditional enough). Once the shot is done extracting in a long espresso for an americano, you can stretch it out to fill a 12 oz cup with hot water to fill the cup. The super auto, with its smaller brew chamber, is going to finish proper extraction at a lesser volume than something that holds enough coffee, and then stretch it out with water forced through that over-extracted, uncleaned brew unit of burning grounds.  If you like Starbucks coffee this might be right up your alley.  If you want your americano to really be a luongo stretched with hot water, you're going into more than one button and the super-auto proves to not be a one step ordeal.
Still, it might be what you want.  I just want to post to make sure you aren't caught by surprise.  It's not gonna dump and flush the grounds and top up your cup with nice water unless you're working with it.
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eieio
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 31
Location: New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun May 5, 2013, 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

SStones:

thanks for your kind reply and reminder.

may i ask if this is true?

i learned that for the Saeco and Jura machines, one may choose between 2 ounces and 8 ounces per "pull".  one may also choose 2 times that, meaning repeat that.  So, it means that 2 ounces may be repeated for a 4 ounce total final drink.  or, as much as 8 ounces may be pulled two times for a total of 16 ounces.  

so, for my case, i may choose 6 ounces and press the 2 times button for a total drink portion of 12 ounces.    This way, the brewing is done via a total of 6 ounces each brewing, so that it is not "excessively diluted or excessively long".

does this help explain why it might be ok or does this still sound undesirable?

kindly remember that i'm a newbie, so i'm still learning.

thanks in advance.
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takeshi
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takeshi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
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Location: Houston
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Espresso: Alex Duetto 3.0
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Posted Mon May 6, 2013, 1:31pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

eieio Said:

I understand that many enthusiasts on a site like this one would scoff at a Super Automatic espresso maker.  On the other hand, this type/category just might suit my needs.  I'll explain and hopefully receive some advice from the good folks here on this forum.

Posted May 4, 2013 link

CoffeeGeek just isn't a good place to ask about superautos.  Those that geek out on coffee don't buy superautos.  It's like hitting a car enthusiast website and asking for advice about an automatic econobox, Toyota Camry, etc.

http://www.singleservecoffeeforums.com seems like a slightly better fit but they're more focused on Keurigs, Nespressos, Tassimos, etc.  There does seem to be some superauto discussion over there though.

eieio Said:

is there that much of a downside to buying a 5-year old piece of technology?

Posted May 4, 2013 link

For most espresso equipment I'd guess no but it's probably not the same for a superauto.  As you've pointed out, more complexity means more things to break down.  Additionally, it really depends on the specific unit and how it has been cared for and maintained over those 5 years.

eieio Said:

does this help explain why it might be ok or does this still sound undesirable?

Posted May 5, 2013 link

It's really up to you to determine if it's undesirable or not.  I think what SStones is saying is that none of us would drink 12oz of water pushed through a puck so asking us isn't going to get you the answer you're looking for.  Can you try out the Jura?
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GVDub
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Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 849
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Londinium I, Arrarex...
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Posted Mon May 6, 2013, 1:43pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

An Aeropress, a decent grinder and one of the new generation of programmable electric kettles will make you much better coffee for much less money with approximately the same amount of time and energy that you'd have to put into maintaining a super-auto.

So the advice from this geek (who started out with a Gaggia Synchrony Digital Super Auto as a step up from a Grind'n'Brew) is to avoid the super auto if you actually like the taste of good coffee.
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eieio
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 31
Location: New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon May 6, 2013, 1:54pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

takeshi Said:

For most espresso equipment I'd guess no but it's probably not the same for a superauto.  As you've pointed out, more complexity means more things to break down.  Additionally, it really depends on the specific unit and how it has been cared for and maintained over those 5 years.

Posted May 6, 2013 link

i guess i was unclear:  it's not a used 5-year old machine.   the J6 has been on the market for roughly 5 years.

i checked with Jura today and they corrected me:  they said the J6 has been on the market for around 3 years, not 5 years.

thanks re: the suggestion for the other forum.  i'll go there to check it out.
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CMIN
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Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Mon May 6, 2013, 2:15pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

GVDub Said:

An Aeropress, a decent grinder and one of the new generation of programmable electric kettles will make you much better coffee for much less money with approximately the same amount of time and energy that you'd have to put into maintaining a super-auto.

So the advice from this geek (who started out with a Gaggia Synchrony Digital Super Auto as a step up from a Grind'n'Brew) is to avoid the super auto if you actually like the taste of good coffee.

Posted May 6, 2013 link

This, you'll get waaaaaaaay better coffee out of a $30 aeropress, then even a superauto costing a couple grand. Even the "extra strength" settings on superatuos are weak as heck as the extractions aren't done right (really on any superauto, 15 second shots are pretty normal = way underextracted), don't dose right, don't tamp right, don't grind even remotley close to even a entry level espresso grinder like the Preciso. Hence why superauto shots and drinks are pretty weak and blahhh. But fast and convenient... but so is McD's (blahh lol).

You'd be way better off with something like the aeropress and drinking straight or adding water for your americanos. Have a much better tasting coffee/drink (provided your using fresh roasted beans). Or even a basic entry level semi machine like a Gaggia Classic etc, but difference between brewing a good shot (i.e. 1.5-2oz) and then adding hot water for an Americano, vs brewing from a superauto puck over a longer time to make an "americano".
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SStones
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SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 474
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Mon May 6, 2013, 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

I am not 100% certain that I'm correct, but I believe that on the Jura if you select a double 6 oz brew, the machine will grind to fill the brew unit with as much coffee grounds as it can hold and then run 12 oz of hot water through it.  The Saeco, on the other hand, would grind, brew a 6 oz cup, cycle through, grind again and brew another 6 oz on top of that.   Both ways should end up producing a similar drink.  Both machines would presumably allow you to brew a three oz double and then top it off separately with hot water from a hot water dispensor.  In my mind that's a more appetizing americano. I far from an expert in either of those machines. I still suggest trying everything before buying. There are plenty of people who love their super automatics, but they're a lot quieter than those who find them lacking.  Try them out. Have the dealers show you how he'd use it to make the various things you plan to use it for.
I understand that there is a time and a place for the convenience of a superauto, it's nice having it done for you. Just weigh that convenience against the limitations of a machine. The machine will never be a great barista, just a good approximation of one.
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eieio
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 31
Location: New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue May 7, 2013, 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

SStones Said:

I am not 100% certain that I'm correct, but I believe that on the Jura if you select a double 6 oz brew, the machine will grind to fill the brew unit with as much coffee grounds as it can hold and then run 12 oz of hot water through it.  The Saeco, on the other hand, would grind, brew a 6 oz cup, cycle through, grind again and brew another 6 oz on top of that.   Both ways should end up producing a similar drink.  Both machines would presumably allow you to brew a three oz double and then top it off separately with hot water from a hot water dispensor.  In my mind that's a more appetizing americano. I far from an expert in either of those machines. I still suggest trying everything before buying. There are plenty of people who love their super automatics, but they're a lot quieter than those who find them lacking.  Try them out. Have the dealers show you how he'd use it to make the various things you plan to use it for.
I understand that there is a time and a place for the convenience of a superauto, it's nice having it done for you. Just weigh that convenience against the limitations of a machine. The machine will never be a great barista, just a good approximation of one.

Posted May 6, 2013 link

********

I looked carefully at the specs and this is what i concluded:

- for someone who doesn't want auto dispensed milk, i.e. internally frothed milk, rather than a manual frother outside, the best machine from Jura I can get is the J6. it has more options than the ENA line or the Micro line, and all the other models (X line, F line, etc) all have internal milk frothing.

i have nothing against automated milk frothing except that i won't use it, as i prefer using half and half.

J6 can make 2 oz to 8 oz, and there is a button to automatically do two cycles of that. i.e. i can choose 6 oz and when i press the "bigger cup" button, it automatically will do the cycle twice, resulting in TWO 6 oz drinks with a total of 12 oz. Furthermore, the J6 has 4 "strength" settings: mild, medium, strong, XStrong.

it dispenses around 5 grams to 16 grams per shot.

Therefore, i'd assume XStrong at 2.5 oz would be rather strong as it would use a 16 grams of coffee (which seems way way too much to me, though i'm a complete newbie and my guess of 10 grams as appropriate might be way off). Btw, there are only 2 temperature settings.

Hence, my conclusion is that the J6 has the most options for someone who doesn't want milk to be auto dispensed.

Would the J6 be a good option for me then?
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SStones
Senior Member
SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 474
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Tue May 7, 2013, 7:32pm
Subject: Re: Jura J6 Super Automatic or Saeco?
 

eieio Said:

********

I looked carefully at the specs and this is what i concluded:
J6 can make 2 oz to 8 oz, and there is a button to automatically do two cycles of that. i.e. i can choose 6 oz and when i press the "bigger cup" button, it automatically will do the cycle twice, resulting in TWO 6 oz drinks with a total of 12 oz. Furthermore, the J6 has 4 "strength" settings: mild, medium, strong, XStrong.
it dispenses around 5 grams to 16 grams per shot.
Hence, my conclusion is that the J6 has the most options for someone who doesn't want milk to be auto dispensed.
Would the J6 be a good option for me then?

Posted May 7, 2013 link

I believe that you know more about the J6 than I do,  I have never touched one and have only been assuming it is a lot like a J5. I think you'll answer your question more accurately than I.

If you like the temperature and quality of the coffee that the J6 makes, then it is perfect for you.
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