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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 124
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri May 10, 2013, 6:17am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CSME9 Said:

Maybe Chris coffee will ask QM for a test machine to put thru the paces, i am sure there  is interest by users to buy this machine.

Posted May 10, 2013 link

Yes, there is interest in this machine and Chris knows it. However, at an anticipated price of about $2400-$2500 it will be a direct competitor to the Duetto, for which CCS is also the exclusive North American Importer. Maybe Chris plans to bring the 2B soon and that's why he recently raised the Duetto price to create some separation? There are many factors that play into the economics of importing and maintaining these machines, and I for one, respect Chris' considerations and decision on this.
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chriscoffee
Senior Member


Joined: 5 Mar 2002
Posts: 246
Location: Albany
Expertise: Professional

Posted Mon May 13, 2013, 5:45pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Quick Mill is sending me one for test and evaluation. I will have it in a couple of weeks. I would like to compare notes with David before bring in a large quantity of them. There are several things to consider BEFORE placing an order for $100,000.00 dollars worth of inventory. First of all a machine that functions well at 230 volt is not guaranteed to work as well at 120 volt. Second thing that we always take into consideration is serviceability of the machine. Customers do not want to pack up a 75 pound machine and ship it back for service however there is a limit to what a customer is willing to do.

Chris
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Mon May 13, 2013, 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

chriscoffee Said:

Quick Mill is sending me one for test and evaluation. I will have it in a couple of weeks. I would like to compare notes with David before bring in a large quantity of them. There are several things to consider BEFORE placing an order for $100,000.00 dollars worth of inventory. First of all a machine that functions well at 230 volt is not guaranteed to work as well at 120 volt. Second thing that we always take into consideration is serviceability of the machine. Customers do not want to pack up a 75 pound machine and ship it back for service however there is a limit to what a customer is willing to do.

Chris

Posted May 13, 2013 link

Good to hear! Hoping it comes thru with flying colors!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 7:53am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Just an update...lots of work with QM to make sure this machine is the best it can be for the consumer. A bit done under the hood, stuff I suppose many will never see and the lengthy test of different coffees and roasts over weeks, plus soak tests to ensure it performs flawlessly. The latest is an improvement to the PID (the current one is the same as everyone else's and works fine), designed to make steaming even better) which the Italian/English translation isn't working too well for and I also trust no one. So a revised PID is being sent to me to retrofit to the machine I have. If it's as QM claim, then it should also improve steaming on the US machines with their undoubtedly lower power steam element. We on UK voltage don't have the same problems and as Chris says correctly, what works well in the UK may need tweaking for the US. Hopefully though this machines going to be as good as you can get for working well in both environments

I will then check it all out and revise the review/user guide accordingly.....so a little bit longer, but it's worth the wait. There are some subtle, but very good things about the machine and yes, by necessity, the review will compare and contrast to some extent between it and other rival dual boiler machines (well those I have reviewed).

Interestingly although Italian companies are not always easy to deal with, but I have found QM to be quite receptive compared to most and they seem to genuinely want to build a machine that is right....

Meanwhile, I must remember to put my MK1 Duetto back in it's box and store it away. ;-)
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 8:02am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

Just an update...lots of work with QM to make sure this machine is the best it can be for the consumer. A bit done under the hood, stuff I suppose many will never see and the lengthy test of different coffees and roasts over weeks, plus soak tests to ensure it performs flawlessly. The latest is an improvement to the PID (the current one is the same as everyone else's and works fine), designed to make steaming even better) which the Italian/English translation isn't working too well for and I also trust no one. So a revised PID is being sent to me to retrofit to the machine I have. If it's as QM claim, then it should also improve steaming on the US machines with their undoubtedly lower power steam element. We on UK voltage don't have the same problems and as Chris says correctly, what works well in the UK may need tweaking for the US. Hopefully though this machines going to be as good as you can get for working well in both environments

I will then check it all out and revise the review/user guide accordingly.....so a little bit longer, but it's worth the wait. There are some subtle, but very good things about the machine and yes, by necessity, the review will compare and contrast to some extent between it and other rival dual boiler machines (well those I have reviewed).

Interestingly although Italian companies are not always easy to deal with, but I have found QM to be quite receptive compared to most and they seem to genuinely want to build a machine that is right....

Meanwhile, I must remember to put my MK1 Duetto back in it's box and store it away. ;-)

Posted May 22, 2013 link

Good work Dave!! Hope they send Chris the updated PID also. Looks like it may be a few months before we can even see this machine for sale...
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 124
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 9:35am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Thank you for your efforts, Dave!

DavecUK Said:

... The latest is an improvement to the PID (the current one is the same as everyone else's and works fine), designed to make steaming even better) which the Italian/English translation isn't working too well for and I also trust no one. So a revised PID is being sent to me to retrofit to the machine I have. If it's as QM claim, then it should also improve steaming on the US machines with their undoubtedly lower power steam element. We on UK voltage don't have the same problems and as Chris says correctly, what works well in the UK may need tweaking for the US. Hopefully though this machines going to be as good as you can get for working well in both environments

Posted May 22, 2013 link

That is interesting. Short of divulging proprietary information, how would describe the differences between this new PID and the one currently used? I mean, other than the parameters, assuming all it can control is the power to the heating element(s) -- what can one PID design do that another cannot?

OK, and here's a wild, long shot: Given your experience and familiarity with QM, if you had to take an educated guess about the timing of implementing these improvements and getting to the point of being ready to export (Chris' setting up for import is another matter) -- what would it be?

Thanks,
Zevi
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 10:55am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Zevi Said:

Thank you for your efforts, Dave!



That is interesting. Short of divulging proprietary information, how would describe the differences between this new PID and the one currently used? I mean, other than the parameters, assuming all it can control is the power to the heating element(s) -- what can one PID design do that another cannot?

OK, and here's a wild, long shot: Given your experience and familiarity with QM, if you had to take an educated guess about the timing of implementing these improvements and getting to the point of being ready to export (Chris' setting up for import is another matter) -- what would it be?

Thanks,
Zevi

Posted May 22, 2013 link

With the PID the owner of QM asked me not to say anything yet, but as the new machines for the UK will probably come with this PID, I have to check it out. The current one I have is absolutely fine, but if this one makes it even better...then great.

As for all the improvements and QC stuff, it should be in any machines that ship to the US as it will be in the UK machines at launch in early June. The company I do the review for and QM themselves want it to be right, hence not rushing. This is even down to written confirmation from the pump manufacturer that the pump mounting/installation is OK and approved. I'm guessing/hoping, that the only change that will be on the US machines is the use of a 1200W steam boiler element and of course alternate steam/brew heating on a 15 amp circuit.

I do have an idea for the US, that would allow you to have a 1400W element like us in the UK (even on a 15A circuit), but not sure if it's possible to implement it in this machine! You would then have same warm up time and steaming power as the UK. The simplest way would require a slight change in the way the machine is used, but I don't think that minor compromise would be an issue. The compromise would be that you don't steam milk while pulling a shot....but people don't anyway, in case it makes the autofill kick in, which of course then ruins the shot. People usually steam before or after the shot.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 11:09am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

With the PID the owner of QM asked me not to say anything yet, but as the new machines for the UK will probably come with this PID, I have to check it out. The current one I have is absolutely fine, but if this one makes it even better...then great.

As for all the improvements and QC stuff, it should be in any machines that ship to the US as it will be in the UK machines at launch in early June. The company I do the review for and QM themselves want it to be right, hence not rushing. This is even down to written confirmation from the pump manufacturer that the pump mounting/installation is OK and approved. I'm guessing/hoping, that the only change that will be on the US machines is the use of a 1200W steam boiler element and of course alternate steam/brew heating on a 15 amp circuit.

I do have an idea for the US, that would allow you to have a 1400W element like us in the UK (even on a 15A circuit), but not sure if it's possible to implement it in this machine! You would then have same warm up time and steaming power as the UK. The simplest way would require a slight change in the way the machine is used, but I don't think that minor compromise would be an issue. The compromise would be that you don't steam milk while pulling a shot....but people don't anyway, in case it makes the autofill kick in, which of course then ruins the shot. People usually steam before or after the shot.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

This is the issue with the QM67, correct? So, if they upgrade the heater to 1400w it would still be a problem? Why is it that other machines with 1200w heaters dont have an issue? Just curious.
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CSME9
Senior Member
CSME9
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 291
Location: West Texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Mitica Top, Spaz...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Moka Pot
Roaster: BBQ Roaster
Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 12:27pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

With the PID the owner of QM asked me not to say anything yet, but as the new machines for the UK will probably come with this PID, I have to check it out. The current one I have is absolutely fine, but if this one makes it even better...then great.

As for all the improvements and QC stuff, it should be in any machines that ship to the US as it will be in the UK machines at launch in early June. The company I do the review for and QM themselves want it to be right, hence not rushing. This is even down to written confirmation from the pump manufacturer that the pump mounting/installation is OK and approved. I'm guessing/hoping, that the only change that will be on the US machines is the use of a 1200W steam boiler element and of course alternate steam/brew heating on a 15 amp circuit.

I do have an idea for the US, that would allow you to have a 1400W element like us in the UK (even on a 15A circuit), but not sure if it's possible to implement it in this machine! You would then have same warm up time and steaming power as the UK. The simplest way would require a slight change in the way the machine is used, but I don't think that minor compromise would be an issue. The compromise would be that you don't steam milk while pulling a shot....but people don't anyway, in case it makes the autofill kick in, which of course then ruins the shot. People usually steam before or after the shot.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

QM67 steam heating elements were upgraded to 1400W before CCS approved the machines for shipping, with the alternating heating don't see why the 2B couldnt use a 1400W steam element and 800W brew element.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 2:23pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CSME9 Said:

QM67 steam heating elements were upgraded to 1400W before CCS approved the machines for shipping, with the alternating heating don't see why the 2B couldnt use a 1400W steam element and 800W brew element.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

Because the rotary pumps RPM motor probably uses around 300W start up and 170W run current as opposed to the 48-52W of an Ulka vibration pump.  I'm not totally sure but US voltage is 115V nominal?, so on a 15A circuit that might run a bit close for comfort. Of course though, if I'm wrong and you can run a machine that close to the maximum....great all the better, but I think the Rotary pump might be what pushes it over the edge. It's probably more a regulation thing, because to be honest the loadings are brief and not for prolonged periods e.g. perhaps 20 seconds or so, so the small % over would probably be fine....but it's laws and regulations that your resellers have to follow. I'm not sure exactly what they are, but I assume Chris would have had 1200W elements in the Duettos for a very good reason....unless that has changed in recent years?
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