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occoffeefan
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Orange County, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario W, Mazzer Mini...
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Mon Jul 15, 2013, 7:04pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

michaelgo Said:

Where did you take the class?  I know Heather well and have attended several gatherings at the roasting plant here in Rancho.  I've been thinking about taking it, just haven't had the time.  All my coffee comes from Klatch.

Michael

Posted July 14, 2013 link

I took a private 1 day session from Heather at the Klatch Upland Roastery.
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dagoat
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 331
Location: santa barbara, ca
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola, BDB...
Grinder: HG-One, baratza vario
Vac Pot: aeropress
Drip: manual
Roaster: cafe rosto
Posted Tue Jul 16, 2013, 8:55pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

occoffeefan Said:

I took a private 1 day session from Heather at the Klatch Upland Roastery.

Posted July 15, 2013 link

did you use your own bdb or her equipment?  this thread is so full of newbies and a handful of intermediates, i'm really interested to hear what more expert folks have to say about the bdb.  would be interesting to hear what she had to say about the bdb.  but back to your lesson... you use the bdb more or less the same way you would a real professional machine, so even if you did not get to use your bdb in your lesson with heather, the skills should be directly transferrable.

-peter
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occoffeefan
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Orange County, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario W, Mazzer Mini...
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 12:25am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

dagoat Said:

did you use your own bdb or her equipment?  this thread is so full of newbies and a handful of intermediates, i'm really interested to hear what more expert folks have to say about the bdb.  would be interesting to hear what she had to say about the bdb.  but back to your lesson... you use the bdb more or less the same way you would a real professional machine, so even if you did not get to use your bdb in your lesson with heather, the skills should be directly transferrable.

-peter

Posted July 16, 2013 link

I brought my equipment to her classroom - the Vario W and BDB,  My goals were to learn how to pull the sweetest shots with minimal bitterness and do Latte Art on my own equipment. She had  La Marzocco and Nuovo Simonelli commercial machines in the classroom. We worked primarily with the Klatch WBC espresso.  We put the BDB through its paces pulling many shots.   At the end of the day it appeared we had a pressure problem - the BDB was only doing 3 bars. She felt we might have pushed the machine too hard.  It made an unsual sound during preinfusion - a whining sound from the pump.   I took it home, let it rest, pulled more shots and it was pulling 9 bars.  It has worked fine since then.  I let her know this.. .  She did say she the BDB would be on her recommended list of machines for future students.
As far as performance, the La Marzocco pulled the better shots with less bitterness and more sweetness over the BDB and Nuovo. The BDB was brighter until we tweaked the temperature and grind.  It was then  able to pull a sweet shot comparable to  the La Marzocco.  At home I can get some sweetness in the shots, but not to the level I was able to get in the classroom.  Latte Art is easy on the BDB and Nuovo, the La Marzocco is very fast and tougher to master.

It appears the BDB is not built for heavy use day in and day out, but light use is OK. My machine did not fail until the end of the day after pulling many shots and had been fine since then.  Of course that may have been a fluke with my machine.
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occoffeefan
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Orange County, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario W, Mazzer Mini...
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 7:51am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

Pressure profiling on the BDB..

I tried this as an experiment... the BDB allows any pressure from 55% ti 99% of full pressure on the preinfusion and you can keep the  preinfusion pressure  as long as you want by holding down the button ( I use the manual button).
So... I ground some Black Cat espresso,... preinfused at 60% for 5 seconds, started the shot aiming for 27 gm ( I weight my shot).  When the flow rate increased and the shot started to blond, I cut off the shot, restarted the shot holding down the manual  button (which gave me 60% of full pressure) and finished the shot at 27 gram.  Results? a sweeter shot with very little  bitterness.  This method may underextract the shot, but it is my experience that if the shot speeds up and blonds, it becomes more bitter.  Since the pump can be set at any pressure from 55% to 99%  one could experiment with this having two pressures available during your shot, the full 9 bar pressure and a percentage of that.
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carz07
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carz07
Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Philippines
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Bodum Bistro,...
Drip: V60, Phin, Bonmac, Ame. Drip
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:24am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

occoffeefan Said:

Pressure profiling on the BDB..

I tried this as an experiment... the BDB allows any pressure from 55% ti 99% of full pressure on the preinfusion and you can keep the  preinfusion pressure  as long as you want by holding down the button ( I use the manual button).
So... I ground some Black Cat espresso,... preinfused at 60% for 5 seconds, started the shot aiming for 27 gm ( I weight my shot).  When the flow rate increased and the shot started to blond, I cut off the shot, restarted the shot holding down the manual  button (which gave me 60% of full pressure) and finished the shot at 27 gram.  Results? a sweeter shot with very little  bitterness.  This method may underextract the shot, but it is my experience that if the shot speeds up and blonds, it becomes more bitter.  Since the pump can be set at any pressure from 55% to 99%  one could experiment with this having two pressures available during your shot, the full 9 bar oressure and a percentage of that.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

you mean the bar pressure set for the pre infusion right, manual button is on the fly preinfusion right
i dont get with you mean by cut the shot and restart again, you mean you have 2 preinfusions (first with a cut and then the 2nd prior to full extraction) and then full extraction? so you are not considering shot time now but just weight of the coffee

 
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occoffeefan
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Orange County, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario W, Mazzer Mini...
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:39am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

carz07 Said:

you mean the bar pressure set for the pre infusion right, manual button is on the fly preinfusion right
i dont get with you mean by cut the shot and restart again, you mean you have 2 preinfusions (first with a cut and then the 2nd prior to full extraction) and then full extraction? so you are not considering shot time now but just weight of the coffee

Posted July 17, 2013 link

I had the BDB set for 5 seconds at 60% preinfusion.  I used the manual button, started the shot normally and cut it off when the shot started to blond and speed up. I then held the manual button down, restarted the shot at 60% pressure and let it finish at 27 gm.    I should mention that previous to this, I did set my grind according the the Intelligensia Black Cat classic espresso instructions: 18-19 gram ground pulling at  23 to 26 seconds with a final weight of 26 to 31 gm. By then adding this pressure profiling technique, I ignored the shot time and just considered the final weight of the coffee.
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carz07
Senior Member
carz07
Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Philippines
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Bodum Bistro,...
Drip: V60, Phin, Bonmac, Ame. Drip
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 9:11am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

occoffeefan Said:

I do coffee dry to to wet weight (which I learned from Heather at Klatch.. I weight my dry weight on the Vario W, and shoot for 55 to 60% dry to wet weight on the final shot. ( I have a scale under my shot glass) . I weighed out about 18.7 grams  I allowed the machine to preinfuse normally ( I have it set for 5 seconds at 60%) I observed the shot - when the flow rate speeded  and started to blond. I then pushed the manual button to stop the shot. Then I pressed and held down the manual botton which restarted the shot at 60% pressure and observed the scale until my shot finished at 27 gm. I then quickly pulled the scale and shot glass from the stream to stop the shot. As far as dry to wet percentage in this case,  I ground the shot to 18.7 gm, the final shot weighed 27  grams, so 18.7/27 is 69%.  Heather mentioned to me that for fresher coffee aim for 55% and older coffee aim for 60%. dry to wet weight. And yes, I was just considering the weight of the coffee, not shot time. I did prevously pull the shot within the shot time parameters recommended on the Intelligensia Black Cat site. For this experiment, I kept the same grind and weight setting as before and then tried this pressure profiling technique. Shot time goes out the window if you stop and restart the shot at a lower pressure.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

so its between a normale and a ristretto dry/wet weight ratio

ok let me recap

  1. push manual - runs low pressure pre infusion (your choice of pressure and time)
  2. after 5 seconds, pump starts to kick in and pressure goes up to 9bar, and after a few seconds coffee starts to flow, it doesnt go blond at this time, only almost at the end of the shot that it goes blond --- ?

 
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dagoat
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 331
Location: santa barbara, ca
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola, BDB...
Grinder: HG-One, baratza vario
Vac Pot: aeropress
Drip: manual
Roaster: cafe rosto
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 9:23am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

occoffeefan Said:

I do coffee dry to to wet weight (which I learned from Heather at Klatch...

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Good to year people adopting a more scientific approach to espresso.  I've caught a LOT of crap from newbies on here because I recommend the very same thing, weighing BOTH the dose AND the extraction.  And I walk my talk... even though I've been making espresso for years, I still weigh both every single time.  FWIW, weighing both is why I didn't trade my regular old 2009 vintage Vario for a Vario-W--since I weigh my shots too, i had to have a scale anyway.

A lot of newbies, especially after they buy a machine like a BDB, which seems quasi-commercial to them, want to imitate the pro baristas they see at their favorite shop, not weighing every shot.  That only works when you are making a hundred shots a day, and you pay attention to every one, and taste sample shots often and make adjustments often.  For the guy that makes 2-6 shots a day, sometimes in a couple of sessions, and separated by hours like the time you spend at work, then if you don't weigh every time, you are doing a lot of guessing with little in the way of tasting, to base your guesses off of.

-Peter
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PrescottCR
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PrescottCR
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 136
Location: Prescott
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: Breville
Grinder: Baratza
Roaster: Diedrich
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 12:18pm
Subject: Take the time to do it right.
 

Weighing both is just doing it right. Like you said, these are shots for you and your family. Take the time to do it right and you'll be more consistent AND waste less.

To each their own, I don't know why people have to be judgmental of those who prefer something else. Particularly if the other approach is more accurate. For example, I had never heard of starting a shot, stopping it as it gets light and using the pre-infusion pressure to finish it. I might play with that for grins. There are some that let the first few drips of a shot fall into the drip tray and start collecting liquid espresso after a few seconds of drip.

Keep an open mind, enjoy what you enjoy, try new things if you feel like it.
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occoffeefan
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 61
Location: Orange County, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario W, Mazzer Mini...
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Take the time to do it right.
 

PrescottCR Said:

Weighing both is just doing it right. Like you said, these are shots for you and your family. Take the time to do it right and you'll be more consistent AND waste less.

To each their own, I don't know why people have to be judgmental of those who prefer something else. Particularly if the other approach is more accurate. For example, I had never heard of starting a shot, stopping it as it gets light and using the pre-infusion pressure to finish it. I might play with that for grins. There are some that let the first few drips of a shot fall into the drip tray and start collecting liquid espresso after a few seconds of drip.

Keep an open mind, enjoy what you enjoy, try new things if you feel like it.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

The first thing Heather had me do was weigh my shots. She advocated a 55-60 % range - dry to wet. I actually pulled a shot at 69% in my previous example since that is what was recommended on the Black Cat site for their espress-
( 18.7 gm dry weight / 27 grams wet weight) = 69%. Her advice was pull 55% for newer coffee ( 4 days post roast) to 60% for older coffee ( 8-10 days post roast). This can be applied to any dose of coffee you want ( if you tend to updose)
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