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Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Yet another X vs...  
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pfn
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 64
Location: Santa Clara, CA, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra II
Grinder: KA Proline w/ Mazzer Mini...
Posted Tue Apr 16, 2013, 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

didiee Said:

I think it's China, at least that's what people have been saying in the forum.

Regardless, i've getting too much education/information to decide that i'm going for a double boiler.... so CC1 no longer in the running... and after too many heated and hated discussion BDB is out too.. (unless I can get it for 850)

Now just need to 1. find the money or  2. the courage to get something from Ebay from one of the less known retailer... (Brewtus can be had for 600 less....  probably too good to be true...)

Money is NOT a big issue, not to say I can have 2500 to spend with poor reliability.... but if any good deals comes along, I will snatch if I can.

Posted April 16, 2013 link

Personally, I'd say a double-boiler is pretty wasteful unless you want to be rather luxurious in your spending (both in initial outlay and the power consumption necessary to maintain two boilers at temperature). Additionally, double-boilers may not be the panacea you would think, e.g. the BDB is a dual boiler, but it is not user-serviceable, and has small boilers and thus pretty weak steam output, as well as long-ish recovery times. This may be more indicative of its price than the fact that it's a dual boiler, however. I thought long and hard about getting the BDB myself.

Unless you're running on a 20A circuit, as well, a dual boiler will not be able to cycle as fast as an HX (single boiler to maintain at steam temperature vs. 2 boilers that must be independently maintained at brew/steam temps). There are hybrid machines that mitigate this by running an HX tube through one of the boilers in order to keep temps stable during load (e.g. Brewtus)

On the flip-side, for a single boiler, in an HX, you only have the power consumption of the steam boiler (although, many dual boilers allow turning off the steam boiler; but then you're negating the DB advantage...). Fewer parts to cycle and break; steam and brewing water is abundant. With a dual boiler, although you may not have a cooling flush, you will still need a warming flush (unless the group head is actively heated).

The above is my perspective as a new HX owner and a previous SBDU (Silvia) user. For home use, I can't justify having a dual-boiler; my personal drinking habits are 50/50 straight espresso vs. lattes and at 2-3 drinks a day at the top end, powering 2 boilers is simply wasteful and unsustainable. The HX lets me brew all day long, for any type of drink I want, non-stop, for all the company I could ever have at home.

On top of all this, you're blowing your budget by at least $1000, more than 50% of what you were aiming for originally!
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didiee
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 34
Location: CT, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 7:59am
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

pfn Said:

Personally, I'd say a double-boiler is pretty wasteful unless you want to be rather luxurious in your spending (both in initial outlay and the power consumption necessary to maintain two boilers at temperature). Additionally, double-boilers may not be the panacea you would think, e.g. the BDB is a dual boiler, but it is not user-serviceable, and has small boilers and thus pretty weak steam output, as well as long-ish recovery times. This may be more indicative of its price than the fact that it's a dual boiler, however. I thought long and hard about getting the BDB myself.

Unless you're running on a 20A circuit, as well, a dual boiler will not be able to cycle as fast as an HX (single boiler to maintain at steam temperature vs. 2 boilers that must be independently maintained at brew/steam temps). There are hybrid machines that mitigate this by running an HX tube through one of the boilers in order to keep temps stable during load (e.g. Brewtus)

On the flip-side, for a single boiler, in an HX, you only have the power consumption of the steam boiler (although, many dual boilers allow turning off the steam boiler; but then you're negating the DB advantage...). Fewer parts to cycle and break; steam and brewing water is abundant. With a dual boiler, although you may not have a cooling flush, you will still need a warming flush (unless the group head is actively heated).

The above is my perspective as a new HX owner and a previous SBDU (Silvia) user. For home use, I can't justify having a dual-boiler; my personal drinking habits are 50/50 straight espresso vs. lattes and at 2-3 drinks a day at the top end, powering 2 boilers is simply wasteful and unsustainable. The HX lets me brew all day long, for any type of drink I want, non-stop, for all the company I could ever have at home.

On top of all this, you're blowing your budget by at least $1000, more than 50% of what you were aiming for originally!

Posted April 16, 2013 link

pfn,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I especially like that last line... =)

I certainly want to get the "best money can buy' machine, but it has degenerated to just that.  I'm not taking consideration of anything else, such as costumer service, reliability or to some degree practicality.

maybe I should get back to my original question then.  
Pro/Con on any of these machines?  
reliability?

Thanks again.
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pfn
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 64
Location: Santa Clara, CA, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra II
Grinder: KA Proline w/ Mazzer Mini...
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 8:06am
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

didiee Said:

pfn,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I especially like that last line... =)

I certainly want to get the "best money can buy' machine, but it has degenerated to just that.  I'm not taking consideration of anything else, such as costumer service, reliability or to some degree practicality.

maybe I should get back to my original question then.  
Pro/Con on any of these machines?  
reliability?

Thanks again.

Posted April 17, 2013 link

I would choose one of the heat exchanger models, since your drinking habits are primarily milky. I don't know much about reliability, but they are all probably relatively equal, with maybe the CC1 being questionable as it's relatively new and has lots of electronic gadgets. Jim @ 1stline has indicated that a PID is pretty reliable vs. a pstat, so maybe get the bz07 w/ PID; the auto with volumetric extraction is still overkill, IMO.
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didiee
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 34
Location: CT, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 2:54pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

pfn Said:

I would choose one of the heat exchanger models, since your drinking habits are primarily milky. I don't know much about reliability, but they are all probably relatively equal, with maybe the CC1 being questionable as it's relatively new and has lots of electronic gadgets. Jim @ 1stline has indicated that a PID is pretty reliable vs. a pstat, so maybe get the bz07 w/ PID; the auto with volumetric extraction is still overkill, IMO.

Posted April 17, 2013 link

i'm actually close by enough to jim, maybe one of these days i'll go by his show room and check everything out.
the reason why i would consider volumetric control and PID is mostly for my other half.  She would love to drive a automatic with all the features rather than tinkering with a manual shift car..... but that being said, i don't think she will be happy driving a Porsche that needs to be babied all the time either.

but the problem with a BZ07 full automatic is the fact that it will be very close to a almost QM67, then that's close to duetto iii..... ahhh.... i digressss....
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 498
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 3:14pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

didiee Said:

Any thoughts 1stline?  I am even thinking moving up to straight double boiler.....  darn it!

Posted April 16, 2013 link

Thanks for the inquiry. It is better to email our sales(at)1st-line.com address for personal recommendations. The reason is that everyone's needs are different, and with this in mind, personal attention to those details are best handled with a personal dialogue. Thanks in advance for understanding.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 498
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 3:20pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

didiee Said:

i'm actually close by enough to jim, maybe one of these days i'll go by his show room and check everything out.
the reason why i would consider volumetric control and PID is mostly for my other half.  She would love to drive a automatic with all the features rather than tinkering with a manual shift car..... but that being said, i don't think she will be happy driving a Porsche that needs to be babied all the time either.

but the problem with a BZ07 full automatic is the fact that it will be very close to a almost QM67, then that's close to duetto iii..... ahhh.... i digressss....

Posted April 17, 2013 link

Thanks. You are more than welcome to stop by, I just kindly ask to please make an appointment when you want to visit. Our showroom does have a good array of machines, but we do not display everything. We can and will take out some of the machines from the warehouse if needed - thus a reason for the appointment. I will even offer some tips and tricks to making espresso providing you with actual experience.

The full auto will increase 'machine utilization' as the spouse will use it more due to the machines ease of use by taking out the dosage variable.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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ddubick
Senior Member


Joined: 1 May 2012
Posts: 148
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Nuova Simonelli Appia 1Gr
Grinder: OE Pharos, Macap M5, Nuova...
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 3:32pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

I wouldn't say PID + Volumetric = Automatic shift.

Much more of the outcome will be based on the grind + tamp.

PID is just controlling the temp of the boiler which a pressurestat can do just fine.  On an HX machine the HX will still get superheated with extended idle periods and require flushing even with a PID.  This is where the grouphead thermometer mentioned earlier comes into play.

As for the volumetric feature, it will still gladly control a terrible shot in 5 or 60 seconds not knowing any better... it's just measuring the amount of water that's flowing through.  It won't let you know that it's going to be over/underextracted.  I wouldn't 'walk away' from a shot being pulled without having some sort of idea how long it took.

Automatic shift would be a super-auto machine where you trade quality for convenience as so many of the important variables are taken out of your control.
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didiee
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 34
Location: CT, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 4:34pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

Thanks to you both.
I will let you know Jim when we come. No worries. I've read your site very carefully during the last few days.

I think she will, as Jim pointed out, use it more.. If she believes that she can just read the tempature and not worry about it too much. I'm sure she can tamp and flush at some point.

I don't think a machine with pstat or "no assistance" machine will get hey any closer of ever pulling a shot....

Thanks again everyone for your inputs.
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pfn
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 64
Location: Santa Clara, CA, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra II
Grinder: KA Proline w/ Mazzer Mini...
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 4:58pm
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

didiee Said:

i'm actually close by enough to jim, maybe one of these days i'll go by his show room and check everything out.
the reason why i would consider volumetric control and PID is mostly for my other half.  She would love to drive a automatic with all the features rather than tinkering with a manual shift car..... but that being said, i don't think she will be happy driving a Porsche that needs to be babied all the time either.

Posted April 17, 2013 link

An automatic isn't that convenient, it's just volumetric letting you skip having to turn the machine off; you'll often have worse drinks for it. remembering to turn the machine off in 25-30 seconds is not a big deal, especially considering the amount of work that goes into prepping for a shot (flush, grind, dose, tamp, lock pf, pull, knock out grinds, clean pf, flush)--all of that will eclipse the pulling time by far.

IME, if your wife does not like gadgets, she probably won't like pulling espresso shots regardless of the machine, unless it's a super auto. My wife wants nothing to do with my espresso setup at all, except for me to make her sweet drinks (I make a mean starbucks-style caramel macchiato and vietnamese-style iced coffees with espresso shots).
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didiee
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 34
Location: CT, USA
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Apr 18, 2013, 8:22am
Subject: Re: Yet another X vs Y vs Z (Cuadra II vs Bezzera BZ 07 vs Crossland CC1)
 

pfn Said:

An automatic isn't that convenient, it's just volumetric letting you skip having to turn the machine off; you'll often have worse drinks for it. remembering to turn the machine off in 25-30 seconds is not a big deal, especially considering the amount of work that goes into prepping for a shot (flush, grind, dose, tamp, lock pf, pull, knock out grinds, clean pf, flush)--all of that will eclipse the pulling time by far.

IME, if your wife does not like gadgets, she probably won't like pulling espresso shots regardless of the machine, unless it's a super auto. My wife wants nothing to do with my espresso setup at all, except for me to make her sweet drinks (I make a mean starbucks-style caramel macchiato and vietnamese-style iced coffees with espresso shots).

Posted April 17, 2013 link

I suppose this is where the art and the science of making espresso collides.  The art says to listen and taste.  The science says measure and protocols.

You seem to enjoy your Cuadra, did you consider anything else before you pull the trigger?
Never had espresso Vietnamese coffee, and yes wifey would like that very much too..... so would that macchiato, and the new hazelnut macchiato from starbucks.  would probably be happier if she never has to pull a shot....
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