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QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > QuickMill QM67...  
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OttoMatic
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 78
Location: Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Brewtus IV-R
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario,...
Drip: Capresso MT500+
Roaster: Cast iron dutch oven
Posted Tue Apr 16, 2013, 8:14am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

I've had a Brewtus IV-R for about three or four months now, and I really enjoy it.  It had a rattling drip tray, but WLL replaced that at my request and the new one fits just fine.  I have read about some issues with their lesser machines, but not much bad about the Brewtus.  I'd also be interested to understand what the complaints might be.  I have no problems pulling high-quality shots, and would contend that I can make coffees as good as most (if not all) of the shops near me.  

I set the PID to 196F and it will vary typically only by -1 from there.  The only time I can get it to drop lower than that is if I'm backflushing it, which consumes much more water than brewing.  I'll easily pull two or three triples in a row without issue, along with steaming, etc.  

I have no experience with the QM67, but I'd say that the two machines look rather similar.  There's some room for personal preference there, but there's no *real* difference there.

FWIW, I've used a Mazzer Mini-E and a Mahlkönig K30 Vario with the Brewtus.  Both give excellent results in the cup.

If you have any specific questions about the Brewtus, I'll try to answer.
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Sigma
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Apr 16, 2013, 9:36am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

Thanks for the information. At this point, I'm just very torn. The Expobar looks like that slightly better value for money, but only 1 place in Canada sells/repairs them, which makes me hesitant.

I'll easily pull two or three triples in a row without issue, along with steaming, etc.

Do you find that the HX on the intake to be a selling/helpful features? Does it significantly help with recovery?
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OttoMatic
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 78
Location: Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Brewtus IV-R
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario,...
Drip: Capresso MT500+
Roaster: Cast iron dutch oven
Posted Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:56am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

Sigma Said:

Thanks for the information. At this point, I'm just very torn. The Expobar looks like that slightly better value for money, but only 1 place in Canada sells/repairs them, which makes me hesitant.


Do you find that the HX on the intake to be a selling/helpful features? Does it significantly help with recovery?

Posted April 16, 2013 link

Yeah, it's a tough call, I'm sure.  If it makes you feel any better, there's only one place in the USA that sells & repairs them, and they're about as far away as you can get from my location!  If it were under warranty and free, I'd probably send it back to WLL.  But, my understanding is that these are generic and simple enough that any seasoned espresso machine tech could work on them (either the Expobar or the QM).  

About the HX on the intake -- I honestly don't know what difference it makes.  And, unfortunately, I don't have direct experience with any other DB machines, especially one without such a configuration.  My metrics on how temperature is affected are only by reading the PID; I don't have a separate thermometer on the brewhead.  If I set it to 196, it's going to stick there for the most part.  It'll dip to 195, but will recover quickly.  I suppose it could go to 194, but I don't think I've seen it go higher.  If you're interested, I could do a test for you; say, do something like pull 2.5 oz, wait 30 seconds, pull 2.5 ounces, wait 30 seconds, etc.  I could wait more or less, and repeat 5 times or whatever, so we could all really understand its recovery time.  I would do all of that with empty baskets --  no coffee would be harmed in this test!  Might even be easier to make a video.
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Jmanespresso
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Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2,109
Location: Westchester NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario
Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5
Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Tue Apr 16, 2013, 1:23pm
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

The small boiler argument has to do with two things.

Fresh brew water.

Quicker temp changes.


The idea is, there is less what in the boiler, so it takes less shots to refresh the boiler fully, therefore, less chance of "stale" water.  

The other part, is temp changes.  The smaller the boiler, the less water you need to change the temperature of when making adjustments.


-The only things Ive heard about stale water in the brew boiler, on any machine, is in speculation of it.  Ive personally never heard a brewtus owner, or VBM DD V1 owner(the DBs with huge brew boilers), complain.

As for temp changes..  Probably not a huge difference between machines.  Fact is, on any E61 dual boiler, you need to wait 10-12, even 15 minutes between temp changes for the machine to restabalize at the new temp.



I think the QM67 is much nicer looking machine than the Brewtus, and here in the states, the QM67 is sold by Chris Coffee, the Brewtus, by WholeLatteLove.  For ME, its no choice at all.  Chris Coffee, done.

Either machine will make you happy, they're both solid, easy to use espresso machines.  Choose the one YOU like more.

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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tdifraia
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 78
Location: Boston
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM67
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Bunn
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 6:51am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

Ive had the QM 67 for 2 months now. The smaller Boilers are NOT a problem for me at all. They recover very fast. In seconds. By the time I am ready to pull a second shot the temps are back. The steam is good, but not great. I am able to steam 12 Oz of milk at the most, and then have to wait for my temps to come back (<2 minutes). It works better for me to do one drink at a time using 6 oz of milk. Like I said by the time I am ready for my next drink the temps are back. It recovers VERY fast. I have been pulling about 8-10 shots a day on average, with more than half milk drinks. Ive had small parties and have made as many as 10 drinks back to back with no waiting. I am a newbie and it takes me a few minutes to put my drinks together. I am using a Vario grinder. So far I am VERY happy with this machine, but it should be noted this is the first and only machine I have owned, so I have nothing to compare it to. I have been drinking espresso all my life and do know it consistently makes GREAT tasting shots. The dual PID is something I had to have, and am glad for it. It eliminates the guess work and allows me to dial in different temps for different blends. For me a PID is not an option, but a necessity. I purchased mine at Chris Coffee and he has answered every question I have asked quickly and accurately. C/S is top notch. Also for me the hot water works fine. I use 2 ounces at a time, wait 10 seconds and draw 2 more. You can do this without limit, so if I need 8 oz of hot water it takes me less than a minute. For me the smaller boilers are a plus, as it allows faster temp. recovery, and allows me to always have fresh water, as detention time is limited. Hope this helps.
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Sigma
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Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 7:22am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

Very useful information, thanks!
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Jmanespresso
Senior Member
Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2,109
Location: Westchester NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario
Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5
Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 8:47am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

The QM67 got a bad rap because of a couple articles written about it being slow to recover.  Its really not true, and thats an unfair assessment.


You cant compare the QM67 to an Alex Duetto or La Spaz Vivaldi, because those machines run on 20amp, and the QM67 on 15amp.  Furthermore, the Vivaldi is a full fledged commercial single group machine, originalyly designed for the restaurant owner or art gallery owner, or even a slow cafe, to have a solid, compact, easy to use machine that can handle small demand.  The Duetto, while designed with the home user in mind, on 20amp mode, is a monster.  You couldn't get ahead of it if you tried.  Either machine could handle a small to medium catering party with ease, running full bore, without issue.


The QM67, is designed purely for the home enthusiast.  Its 15amp, and vibe pump.  The vibe pump just means that its a tad slower to fill the boiler, so you cant just open the water tap full bore and let her empty, because you'll get ahead of the pump.  However, you will find that you won't use it a whole lot,most likely.  I personally really enjoy americano's, but I dont use the water tap to make them.  Only thing I use the hot water tap for, is to put a couple ounces into a cappuccino cup or latte cup before pulling the shot(as I only leave my demi's on the machine, bigger cups in cabinets).  But even if you do want to make americanos with the water tap, as was mentioned, 2oz, wait a second, 2oz, wait, etc etc.

As for steaming and brewing, no, you cant truly do both together.  The brew boiler heating element will alays take priority, so you need to make sure it doesn't come on when your steaming.  When you're steaming you want the steam boiler element to be energized the whole time, maintaining a least 1BAR pressure.

The way you accomplish this, is quite simple.  When making milk drinks, get everything prepped.  Portafilter, cold milk pitcher, hot cup.  While you're doing your prep, do a quick flush of the group to make the brew boiler element turn on.  Byt the time you're done with your shot prep, it will be off, and at the top of its cycle.  Lock in the PF, place the cup, purge the steam, start steaming your milk.  About halfway through, start the shot.  Finish the milk, finish the shot.  Now, you've got milk that was JUST finished, as well as a shot that was JUST finished.

Truth be told though, most people dont do both at once.  Do one, then the other.  Always do the milk first, because you let the milk wait for the espresso if you need too.  You dont want espresso to wait.  Its the same thing though, just make sure the brew boiler element doesn't engage while steaming, and you'll never not have enough steam power.

Really, in home use scenarios, you would have a hard time getting ahead of the QM67.  Even doing a little dinner party, if you follow the workflow I outlined, you'll knock out drinks 1,2,3, and you'll never have to wait for the machine to recover.

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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Sigma
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 9:24am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

Very good information, thanks!

I've started (somewhat seriously) to look at the Alex Duetto 3. Realizing there really is no upper limit on what you can spend, it seems to be that little bit more. It has the 15/20amp option, etc. Do you think it's worth that little bit more?
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Jmanespresso
Senior Member
Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2,109
Location: Westchester NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario
Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5
Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 9:41am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

For the Rotary pump alone, yes.

I like the QM67.  If it weren't for the vibe pump i probably would have bought it.

But Im in love with my Duetto.   Silent rotary pump, option for tank or plumb, 20amp operation to NEVER outrun the machine under any circumstance..

Yes, I do think its worth it.  But I also think the QM67 is a good machine.  If you can afford the Duetto, get it.  If not, dont feel shorted on gettin ghe QM67

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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Sigma
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Apr 17, 2013, 9:55am
Subject: Re: QuickMill QM67 v. Expobar Brewtus iv
 

In 15amp mode, possible to outrun the Duetto?
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