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Is a new category needed?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Is a new...  
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fredk01
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Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Location: Canada
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Saeco Aroma
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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2013, 3:43pm
Subject: Is a new category needed?
 

Machines like the CC1, QM Silvano and the Ascaso Duo Steel, with their single boiler and steam thermoblock, don't quite fit into any of the existing categories.

I've seen them talked about as thermoblock machines, when they are much more than that and talked about as SBDU machines, when they really aren't dual use.  With a boiler, they are much more than steam toys.  With a boiler and thermoblock they appear to offer better steaming in that you will never run out of steam.  I would think that is a distinct advantage over a machine like the Silvia.

I would suggest SB  STB; single boiler, steam thermoblock.

Just my (yes I'm bored) musing.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,774
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
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Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
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Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Apr 10, 2013, 8:48pm
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

I just see them as enhansed sbdu machines, you need two pumps for them to brew and steam at the same time and the boiler is still quite small with the limited abilities that a small boiler brings so my personal feeling is that there really is not any need for another category of machine.

YMMV

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Frost
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Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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Location: Sierra
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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2013, 9:41pm
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

They do offer an important advantage over a SBDU; the brew boiler does not need to cycle to and from steaming temperatures.  This is much better for brew temperature stability and should speed up the process for multiple drinks. I put them an a different category anyway.
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qualin
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qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 654
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
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Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:15am
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

I believe these machines are called SBDH machines.. Single Boiler Dual Heater .. technically, they kinda are.

Seems like they kind of bridge the gap between SBDU and HX machines, somewhere in the $700-$1000 range?

I can see them being a good alternative to buying a SBDU machine for portability...

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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EndTwo
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Joined: 13 Mar 2013
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Location: Denmark
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Espresso: Apscaso uno steel prof
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Drip: french press, ceramic v60...
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Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:40am
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

fredk01 Said:

Machines like the CC1, QM Silvano and the Ascaso Duo Steel, with their single boiler and steam thermoblock, don't quite fit into any of the existing categories.

Posted April 10, 2013 link

Not to split hairs, but my vendor told me that Ascaso had put a thermoblock in the entire steel line... And the Duo steel is as far as I can tell a dual boiler, not "just" boiler and thermoblock.
But its kinda offtopic, sorry.
-Sune
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EndTwo
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Espresso: Apscaso uno steel prof
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Drip: french press, ceramic v60...
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Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 1:20am
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

EndTwo Said:

Not to split hairs, but my vendor told me that Ascaso had put a thermoblock in the entire steel line... And the Duo steel is as far as I can tell a dual boiler, not "just" boiler and thermoblock.
But its kinda offtopic, sorry.
-Sune

Posted April 11, 2013 link

My bad, this is kinda wrong. The entire line will be having thermoblock as far as I understand, but the unos will be thermoblock only...
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 3:44am
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

No boiler at all then it falls below SBDU with boiler, enhanced sbdu still starter class either way.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Jmanespresso
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Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 8:48am
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

qualin Said:

I can see them being a good alternative to buying a SBDU machine for portability...

Posted April 11, 2013 link

Most definitely. Honestly, its almost like the Silvia/Gaggia aren't worth it anymore unless you find a killer deal.  These new boiler/thermoblock, basically the CC1 and Silvano, are the new entry point.

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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fredk01
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Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Saeco Aroma
Grinder: OE Pharos
Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

Frost Said:

They do offer an important advantage over a SBDU; the brew boiler does not need to cycle to and from steaming temperatures.  This is much better for brew temperature stability and should speed up the process for multiple drinks. I put them an a different category anyway.

Posted April 10, 2013 link

This was my thinking and, from what I have read and heard from those with experience with these machines, it is true.

I just see them as enhansed sbdu machines, you need two pumps for them to brew and steam at the same time and the boiler is still quite small with the limited abilities that a small boiler brings so my personal feeling is that there really is not any need for another category of machine.

If you only make one or two drinks at a time and less than 20 per week, do you really need to steam and brew at the same time?  Match function to need.  

As to the small boilers, just how big a boiler do you need for good temperature stability for dedicated brewing?  The CC1 has a .5 liter boiler, the Silvano's is .7 liter.  From all accounts, the BDB with its .5 L brew boiler is amazingly temp stable.  The Mini Vivaldi, a prosumer machine that, as far as I know, is considered a very good machine, has a .45 L brew boiler.  I understand that there is more than boiler size to consider when looking at temperature stability, but still...
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,774
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 5:59pm
Subject: Re: Is a new category needed?
 

Starter machines are a perfect example of ignorance is bliss. You don't even know how much hassle you are putting up with until you move on to better equipment. I started with a steam toy and thought it was fantastic when I used a whirly "grinder" with supermarket whole beans. Then I got a REALespresso machine, made by KRUPPS. It had to be good because it had a pump and it came from a German company, they had to know how to make an espresso machine, right?
Then came beans from coffee shop, still unknown age but they had to be fresh as they came from that coffee shop!
Then a grinder, then machine then grinder then machine then fresh beans then properly roasted fresh, and then, and then and then..........
Looking back at the class of machine under discussion I can see that there isn't much difference between them and SBDU class machines but I can also see that from your perspective they are a whole different animal.

This is not a put down, rather. It is a discussion of perspective, neither of us are wrong, we just have different reference points and histories. Where you see a big difference here, I really dont.

YMMV
:-)

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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