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Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
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RNAV
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Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 24
Location: Fayette'nam, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Lever
Posted Wed Apr 10, 2013, 5:31pm
Subject: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

So I just recently got an E61 brew group temperature probe and noticed something interesting.  When I do a cooling flush, the highest temp I've seen is 211; I stop the cooling flush at about 200, which takes roughly 25 seconds.  

Here's the confusing part:

When I start the extraction after the cooling flush, the temp will start out at 200 for about 5 seconds, then it will drop down to and remain at 196 through the duration of the shot.  

Am I doing something wrong, or do I need to adjust my pressurestat to a higher setting?

Thanks,
Lee
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,775
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
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Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Apr 10, 2013, 8:42pm
Subject: Re: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

I kind of doubt that 25 seconds are required, all you are trying to do is remove the overheated water from the system but there are other things that are at play too such as the temp the machine is set to run at which will affect the temp of the brew group and the steam boiler temp which affects the flush.
I don't see anythwrong with what you are describing so just what is it that is of concern to you?

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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RNAV
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Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 24
Location: Fayette'nam, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Lever
Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 1:54am
Subject: Re: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

My understanding is that the acceptable range for brew temperature is 198-202, correct?

What I am saying is that for 20 seconds of my 25-second shot, the temp of water going into the brew group is 196 (which would be below the accepted temp range).

If I shorten my cooling flush, then the initial 5 seconds of the shot has temps higher than 202, the upper end of the spectrum.

I'm asking what adjustments do I need to make, either to my machine or to my procedures, that will result in the entire shot being brewed with water between 198-202.  Any ideas?

Thank you for your help.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,775
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 3:52am
Subject: Re: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

195 to 205.

A longer cooling flush and your shots are cooler, like yours,
shorter cooling, warmer shots.  
All you need do is remove the over heated water from the brew circuit, on my machine this is only about 3oz, or at most 5 seconds. YMMV!

EDIT;
Don't get stuck on numbers, what does it taste like? If you like it, keep doing it, if you don't then change. I am not a fan of the thermometer mod, my personal feeling is that it puts the focus on the wrong thing, numbers rather than taste. I have an E61 and I have never had the desire to add the thermometer to it and I am VERY happy with the taste. When technology sticks its nose into places, sometimes it is a good thing, other times, it just confuses the issue, again, in my personal opinion this is a place to not sweat numbers, if you like your shots, you are doing it correctly. YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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pfn
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Joined: 1 Apr 2013
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Location: Santa Clara, CA, US
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Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra II
Grinder: KA Proline w/ Mazzer Mini...
Posted Thu Apr 11, 2013, 6:50am
Subject: Re: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

RNAV Said:

My understanding is that the acceptable range for brew temperature is 198-202, correct?

Posted April 11, 2013 link

Brew temp is lower than E61 group thermometer temp. On my machine, others have indicated that the differential is -5F, so if you flush down to 200F, your brew temp will start at 195F. To reach the brew temp you're asking about, I would flush to the range of 203 to 207. Your machine is probably something similar, so maybe try flushing to that range and start off there. It sounds like you're flushing too long and dropping temps too low (consider borrowing a scace to see what the temp diff between the readings is to get a better understanding of where you want to be).

Also, many people have mentioned that 210-211 is the typical idling temp of an HX E61 (after sitting for 30-45 minutes without use).
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RNAV
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Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 24
Location: Fayette'nam, NC
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Lever
Posted Sun Apr 14, 2013, 4:18am
Subject: Re: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

Ok, I've got some more data to submit to y'all.

I've taken the assumption that brew group (BG) temp is 5F cooler than brew group thermometer (BGT) temp.  I've taken repeated shots, on subsequent days, and achieved essentially the same results.  

If I take the cooling flush down to 205F BGT, which should equal 200F BG, it takes approximately 10 seconds (depending on how long the machine has been idle).  I stop the cooling flush and immediately insert the portafilter and start the shot.  The shot starts at 205F BGT, then gradually drops to 196F BGT after 15 seconds.  That means the last 10 seconds of my shot is brewing at 191F BG temp.

It seems to me that my machine cannot sustain a high enough temperature.  In order to achieve a BG temp of 195F by the end of the shot, I'd have to do no cooling flush at all, which means portions of my shot would be brewed with 210F water.  

Does this new info change anyone's opinion?  That's for helping me sort this stuff out.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I purchased my machine used with very little interaction with the original owner.  He mentioned it had a thermosiphon restrictor installed.  I've checked to ensure the OPV is properly set, but that's the extent of ensuring it's properly set up that I've gone to.  In other words, I don't know that the machine is set up correctly.
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Iluvdabean
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Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,271
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Apr 14, 2013, 7:13am
Subject: Re: Pressurestat & HX cooling flush question
 

Never used a one and know nothing about them but found this.

Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

Iluvdabean: e61thermosyphonfinal.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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