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Another DB Quickmill
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Sun Sep 29, 2013, 10:20am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Sharky, thanks. When your machine is fully heated to you see your temp cycle similar to mine +/-1F around set point? and what is your timing from top to top temp or bottom to bottom temp. In my case these measurements are roughly 90sec
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sharky
Senior Member
sharky
Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 190
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Posted Sun Sep 29, 2013, 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Tonyv138 Said:

Sharky, thanks. When your machine is fully heated to you see your temp cycle similar to mine +/-1F around set point? and what is your timing from top to top temp or bottom to bottom temp. In my case these measurements are roughly 90sec

Posted September 29, 2013 link

Tony, yes it varies about 1 deg.  Then you see the amber light flashing as it heats up to 202 then goes off!  I am not sure what you mean by 'top to top' temps?
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Sun Sep 29, 2013, 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Sharky, on a fully preheated V2B,  the PID readings sequence for my machine is as follows:

202F (bottm temp) heat up to 203F(T1) continue heating 204F(top temp) cool off-> 203F(back to T1) continue cooling to 202F(bottom temp); repeat.

Also, I can see a corresponding fluctuating pressure on the pressure guage.

The whole cycle from 202F back to 202F takes 90 sec. I would like to find out how other V2B behave to see if my machine behaves consistent with other machines.

The reason for trying to understand this is that i have a sous vide controlled PID, and that machine keeps temp of water within 1F precision, so i am a bit sirprised that V2B cycles +/- 1F

I hope it makes sense now.
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sharky
Senior Member
sharky
Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 190
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Posted Sun Sep 29, 2013, 7:57pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

OK Tony, I gotcha!  I will check tomorrow am and post my results then!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 3:02am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Tonyv138 Said:

The whole cycle from 202F back to 202F takes 90 sec. I would like to find out how other V2B behave to see if my machine behaves consistent with other machines.

The reason for trying to understand this is that i have a sous vide controlled PID, and that machine keeps temp of water within 1F precision, so i am a bit sirprised that V2B cycles +/- 1F

I hope it makes sense now.

Posted September 29, 2013 link

A few observations:

  1. I have been watching this thread, earlier you said you had a variance of 201-205, now it's +/-1F?
  2. How much water (in litres) does your souse vide bath contain, is it insulated, the brew boiler of a coffee machine is only 700ml?
  3. Are you certain your SV bath display isn't set internally to not show variances of 1f or less around the setpoint?
  4. -/+ 1F around a setpoint will make no difference in the stability at the group...none whatsoever
  5. You can fine tune most of this behaviour out of your PID, but you will affect speed of response, it may take much longer to reach the setpoint (a SV bath is not an espresso machine, it's PID loop will be different)
  6. The brew boiler is insulated, this will always make it harder to recover from slight overshoots and faster from undershoots, but if you want to avoid overshoots entirely, you would need a very conservative PID setting and this is undesirable.

I don't believe you have anything wrong with your machine, but it can be easy to tie yourself in mental knots about this stuff, unnecessarily. Just try and enjoy the coffee it's producing and stop fiddling with it for a while.

Note: the limit of stability will depend upon the internal resolution of the controller/thermal probe system. I am not sure exactly what that is, but it's not far off 1f anyway....so it might have to be an incredibly conservative setting to stop most oscillation around  setpoint.
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sharky
Senior Member
sharky
Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 190
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 4:52am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Tonyv138, my machine only drops 1 deg (201) before it kicks in & re-heats back up to 202.  It takes 28 sec on avg.  My machine keeps a very tight temp range!  So far, so good!
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 5:03am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

thanks, Dave. I observed the cycle of 201F to 205F to with I1 set to 004, exactly per manual. After changing it to 0(V2B was shipped set that a way). Yes, sous vide is different, it is larger, but uninsulated. I thought it would be harder to kee the temp stable - larger mass, overshoots. But the termal mass may be equalised by metal. My bath there is aluminum. and I am not sure how SV is set up internally - dampened or not. They claim 1F and i see it too. Let say my SV set point is 92F, i see 91F going to 92F, back to 91F, no overshoots. This is why i started fiddling.

lastly, sorry, i do not understant your note. Are you referring to SV or V2B?
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 7:40am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Sharky, thanks... I see mine is a tad different... Is your I1 set to 0, and the rest of parms exactly as in CCS manual? Just want to confirm PID settings. Again, thanks
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 8:39am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Tonyv138 Said:

lastly, sorry, i do not understant your note. Are you referring to SV or V2B?

Posted September 30, 2013 link

The V2B, I only use SV to save me writing it out in full. I was trying to make the point that the SV bath has a much larger thermal mass, much easier to keep at a set point, doesn't have inrushes of cold water.

e.g. if the v2b boiler is 700ml and you flush 30ml, then pull a double = 60ml in, that's nearly 15%

after you flush 60ml to clean group there's another 10%

2 ltre SV bath 15% cold water in = 300ml

The SV bath is uninsulated, so can loose heat quickly, V2b boiler is insulated to can't

agressive PID settings V2b:
===================
undershoot = fast recovery say 3-5 secs
Overshoot = slow recovery say 15 - 20 seconds
variance around the set point, rarely lower, mostly higher

conservative PID settings V2b
======================
undershoot = slow recovery say 15-20 secs
Overshoot = faster recovery say 5 seconds (because much less overshoot)
variance around the set point, mostly lower, rarely higher

Wrongly set PID
============
undershoot = slow say 15-20 secs
Overshoot = slow recovery say 15 -20 seconds
wide variance around the set point

Now the sad thing is that for each change in setpoint, the thermal dynamics of the system changes, but unfortunately it's not totally linear. The ideal would be to have a separate set of PID settings for each setpoint, but this is not practical. So you might find the machine more stable at one temperature than others. I try and do my PID settings for a stable system at around the middle of the range for brewing coffee.

Why don't you simply give my settings a try (it's for a 240V machine, but you never know). They are in C and with the machine in that mode remember some parameters when you press them appear not to change, but actually do change by 1F!! e.g. E1 (so it might take 2 presses to go from 11 to 12). Or do the conversion for the C values and deal with the changes when in F mode. Then see how stable your 110V machine is (ensure of course it's warmed up for 1 hr with steam boiler off, before you start assessing and tweaking).

F01 C (or F, if you want to work in old money)
F02 as per your current US setting
P1 1.7
I1 0.04
D1 7.5
b1 10
The Parameters below control the steam boiler, as it has it's own special PID settings
P2 3
I2 0.00
D2 5
b2 5
T1 94
T2 124
E1 11 (or 12 for some machines)
E2 0

After that, just tweak the above settings to get it stable on US voltage.
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 10:58am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Sounds great Dave. I'll take the machine to 20A mode. My house is set up for that, just do not want to be that way permanently, as there are other appliences on the cirquit.

Thanks!
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