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Another DB Quickmill
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

Relative comparisons between steam power and brew/temperature consistency do suggest that there are no perfect machines, I agree. However if flexing of the front yields to premature metal fatigue/failure, that's not just a "get used to the lesser steam power, or fluctuating temperature" situation. That's a "machine will break early" issue. Take car comparisons. We can all debate horsepower, ride comfort, steering, etc. All subjective. Just like espresso machines, there are no perfect cars, but we choose the best one we can based on budget and information. However if you know the metal on one car is weak and will fail prematurely over time, well you'll avoid that one. Same here.

But as I said, I'm a noob at this. I see the Vetrano 2B flexing with a reasonable amount of force. Some have said that other machines on the market flex worse. So my question is: is there proof that over time this flexing will cause premature failure?

Take the Rancilio Silvia rust problem (which I have on my less-than-18-month-old machine). I can post pictures, and others have as well, that prove this is an issue over time, and not a whole lot of time.

But does a flexing front yield to metal fatigue/cracking/breaking on espresso machines? Logic says yes (steel isn't meant to be bent over and over again, especially with significant heat applied near it). But I've been looking around the forums here and at Home Barista and haven't seen any people complaining about it. Of course the search feature here and there leaves a lot to be desired so I may not be searching properly.

Can anyone say for certain that flexing leads to premature problems with the metal? If not, then are we all getting worked up over something that potentially isn't a problem?

Posted July 17, 2013 link


It doesnt concern me in the least bit...
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gz20tt
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Vac Pot: Bodum
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

I have just got off the phone from QM, interesting conversation.....

There are some changes that will be common across the machines in the UK and US. The UK machine I tested has a 1.15 l steam boiler. This is going to be increased to 1.4 l for the UK to match the US variant.

It means I have to redo parts of my review and user guide for the UK reseller, especially the recommended PID settings need to be reviewed for the steam boiler, just in case.....I'm also getting a 4 hole tip as well as the standard 2 hole tip. Partly because you have a 4 hole tip in the US and with the larger boiler, people can choose which tip to install...slower steaming or faster steaming to suit individual styles. QM are sending me a machine directly early next week and I will take it apart and finish my review and get up to date photos.....shortly after I receive it. In a way it's a good job I didn't publish until I saw a production machine....

So it's going to be even better...from the UK perspective.

Whoa.....pulling doubles as you describe is absolutely no problem, it will pull em as fast as you can, get the portafilter out, clean, grind, tamp and do your next shot, and certainly NOT 1 shot every 3 minutes!

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Wow Dave - That's really interesting.
Maybe my delay is a blessing in disguise - that Quickmill is still making design changes on the fly and are not ramping up to full production yet.
I hope mine is still back in the queue for production so that all this makes it into my machine.

I'll contrast this to the reply I got to a similar question on specs from my supplier:

QuickMill make just few modification (most of them are useless) in some model for the US market.
This is a decision made by the US importer and not QuickMill.
You will receive the original version made and designed from the factory.


I'm going to assume it's a language issue as it looks like my supplier is an Italian retailer with an Australian Webstore.

I really want this in my hands - and was a bit down at the delay - but thanks to you, I'm a LOT happier.
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JaniceAnn
Senior Member


Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 4:46pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

It doesnt concern me in the least bit...

Posted July 17, 2013 link

That's nice but it obviously does concern some of us.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 4:51pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

JaniceAnn Said:

That's nice but it obviously does concern some of us.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

I was responding to Carlo..
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JaniceAnn
Senior Member


Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 4:55pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

I was responding to Carlo..

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Sorry!  

The flexing does bother me too, as I mentioned, so I thought your response was to those of us who have posted about our concerns.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,452
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:03pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

Can anyone say for certain that flexing leads to premature problems with the metal? If not, then are we all getting worked up over something that potentially isn't a problem?

Posted July 17, 2013 link

I have NEVER known of a problem with flexing of the front panel on any machine in the prosumer bracket...the amount of flexing we are talking about definitely won't cause a problem.  In fact a little flex is preferable to none, because you're not going to get the chance of stress fractures. The front panel issue on all machines is because the steel used to be quite different from the side panels allowing holes to be cut neatly and not using very brittle composition steels that they would use on the case. It's why often the front panel metal used to look a little different. Modern manufacturing techniques, laser cutting etc.. have allowed the gradual change in front panel metals....to something more akin to the metal in the main part of the case. This front panel steel even if thick, is slightly flexible. The manufacturers can then opt to reinforce it.

Why are the manufacturers reinforcing the panels?......because of comments on forums like this.
Why do people want front panels that have no flex at all?...I don't know, mainly because of comments on forums and some belief that has grown up that any flexing is bad?

It's not bad, a little flex, won't make anything fail over time, not on this machine and not one ones that flex a whole lot more....really a non issue on all machines I've tested for 6 years or more.

There are far more important things to consider....which at first glance are not obvious.

  1. Can you drain the boilers
  2. Is the brew boiler too small or too large (Goldilocks range for E61 groups)
  3. Is it reasonably temperature stable
  4. Is it easy and cheap to maintain, is parts availability good, are there lots of aftermarket accessories and alternate parts.
  5. Are then design issues that will cause/prevent faults e.g. component layout, where it vents in the event of a pressure fault etc..
  6. What's the brew boiler made of
  7. Does it steam well
  8. Are the feet height adjustable so I can level the machine
  9. Is it constructed well
  10. Will is clean up well and look just as good in 10 years time
  11. Is the group easy to clean....because your coffee will taste like shit quite quickly if you don't clean group every 3 days
  12. Can I adjust the rotary pump easily and safely without removing the case
  13. Does the PID have proper separate channels for brewing and steaming with their own parameters (currently the Vetrano is the only machine with this)
  14. Do I/you like the look of it.
  15. Can the steam boiler be switched off and is it big enough to steam well, but not too big to make warm up times too slow.
  16. How is the pump orientated, because inverted as in the Vetrano is absolutely the best.


The Vetrano 2B ticks all these boxes and then some......from my personal perspective it is a great machine and I think better as a domestic prosumer machine than anything else out there in it's broad price range. (this includes machines costing more like the Duetto and Vivalids).
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JaniceAnn
Senior Member


Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Thanks,  Dave!

You addressed all my  concerns.

I have only one more thing I would like to ask   Would you recommend using the 8mm soft gasket instead of the 8.5mm soft gasket or would it make any difference?  I am asking because my husband has arthritis in his hands and wrists and I want to make it as easy as possible for him to be able to lock the portafilter in with light pressure.

Your help has been invaluable to me.   My huband said to tell you thanks for him too.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:17pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

Is the group easy to clean....because your coffee will taste like shit quite quickly if you don't clean group every 3 days

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Love it!!!
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

Does the PID have proper separate channels for brewing and steaming with their own parameters (currently the Vetrano is the only machine with this)

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Can you elaborate a little? What do you mean by separate channels?
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Jul 17, 2013, 8:46pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

 So my question is: is there proof that over time this flexing will cause premature failure? ... But does a flexing front yield to metal fatigue/cracking/breaking on espresso machines? Logic says yes (steel isn't meant to be bent over and over again, especially with significant heat applied near it). But I've been looking around the forums here and at Home Barista and haven't seen any people complaining about it. ...
Can anyone say for certain that flexing leads to premature problems with the metal? If not, then are we all getting worked up over something that potentially isn't a problem?

Posted July 17, 2013 link

What proof would you be looking for? Will the lack of cracked front panels be enough? From an engineering standpoint, the fatigue limit of stainless steel is measured in 10^6 - 10^7 cycles; and that is when the imposed cyclic stress is much more than the stress caused by tightening the portafilter. But let's take 10^6: if you figure 1,000,000 cycles as the fatigue limit, and if you put the portafilter into the E61 ten times each day, 365 days a year -- the flexing of the panel will cause it to fail after about 270 years. Take a safety factor of 10 -- that is still 27 years of 10 "inserts" each day, year-round. I think that should be quite enough...  

I totally agree with your last statement: ...we all getting worked up over something that potentially isn't a problem".

JaniceAnn Said:

I looked at the video of the QM67 and it looks, to me, like it flexes a lot more than the 2B.
Dave says flexing isn't a problem and I am sure he knows but it does give me a bit of pause on placing an order for the 2B.  Just to be honest, my husband watched the video of the 2B.  He doesn't think it is a problem and thinks that I am over reacting.  He is probably right.

Posted July 17, 2013 link

Indeed, the QM67 flexes much more, and also as shown in the video I discussed before - the Duetto 2 flexes much more than the Duetto 3 (which flexes about the same as the V2B), and the Vibiemme also flexes. In fact, there are very few machines that have practically no flex (Brutus is an example).

I think your husband is right - you are overreacting/overanalyzing this. Now, it's totally up to you to decide what'll take to remove your concerns about the flexing, but if everything that has been said here -- from Dave's opinion through engineering reasoning to videos of other machines -- if that is not enough -- I don't know what will.
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