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Another DB Quickmill
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
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chriscoffee
Senior Member


Joined: 5 Mar 2002
Posts: 246
Location: Albany
Expertise: Professional

Posted Sat Jun 8, 2013, 6:56pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Ours arrived late Friday afternoon I have not had a chance to even fire it up yet. We will on Monday. I am going to be doing a bunch of videos next week. We are doing videos on the New Carisma HX machine by Faema. The new precision shower screens for both E61 machines, and La Spaziale, plus precision insert baskets for La Spaziale. I will however find time to work with the Vetrano DB. Dave I would appreciate it if you would contact me about what exactly you found that could use improvements to be sure it is already on the machine I just received. We should compare notes even though 230 volt will perform differently than 110 volt.

Chris
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sat Jun 8, 2013, 7:00pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

chriscoffee Said:

Ours arrived late Friday afternoon I have not had a chance to even fire it up yet. We will on Monday. I am going to be doing a bunch of videos next week. We are doing videos on the New Carisma HX machine by Faema. The new precision shower screens for both E61 machines, and La Spaziale, plus precision insert baskets for La Spaziale. I will however find time to work with the Vetrano DB. Dave I would appreciate it if you would contact me about what exactly you found that could use improvements to be sure it is already on the machine I just received. We should compare notes even though 230 volt will perform differently than 110 volt.

Chris

Posted June 8, 2013 link

Thanks for keeping us updated, Chris!
Do you have any ballpark estimate for the time these will be available to purchase?

Thanks!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,404
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Jun 8, 2013, 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

chriscoffee Said:

Ours arrived late Friday afternoon I have not had a chance to even fire it up yet. We will on Monday. I am going to be doing a bunch of videos next week. We are doing videos on the New Carisma HX machine by Faema. The new precision shower screens for both E61 machines, and La Spaziale, plus precision insert baskets for La Spaziale. I will however find time to work with the Vetrano DB. Dave I would appreciate it if you would contact me about what exactly you found that could use improvements to be sure it is already on the machine I just received. We should compare notes even though 230 volt will perform differently than 110 volt.

Chris

Posted June 8, 2013 link

I will do Chris, in fact I will be detailing it all in the review, so when written I am sure Bella Barista will let me send you a copy as well. My only problem is, the changes have been agreed, but I will be working from photos and documentation as evidence they have done all that, to allow me to complete the review. Bella Barista will then check the delivered machines against my review. My suspicion is that you might not have all the changes as some were extra cost and were specifically around the area of draining the boilers and descaling. It's a similar approach to what you already have done on some Quickmill machines, but with modifications that keep it within EU rules, but make things much easier for the customer. The standard factory PID settings are not very good at all, so I will send you the ones I found worked best on the UK machine.

Overall though, it's a very good machine with some significant positives. The changes were mainly small ones around some minor quality control and design decisions, to make things that little bit better.

To give just 2  examples of the minor changes:

They use these shaped brass pins to hold the rear of the case on, it's the same in most of the QM machines. These are used almost as self threading screws into the steel frame. Brass is the wrong material for this (and one actually fractured on a friends Andreja). I specified a better material and they said they will change to Chrome Steel. Now I would be surprised if they don't change this on all production models that use these pins.

Another is around the group gasket which although a  nominal 8mm is actually 8.3 - 8.4 mm thick and has to be locked in quite hard to be secure. It's the same on most of  the machines from Italian manufacturers and the main reason why most of them have strengthened the front panels on their machines. I have specified a very specific brand of gasket from an Italian supplier that is exactly 8.0mm thick. It's also a little softer and the portafilter locks in at the correct position and can be locked in with the lightest press of your little finger (should you so desire) and still not leak, or untwist under pressure. The gasekt won't last quite as long, but that's a good thing, because in an ideal world people should be changing them every 6 - 9 months depending on "on time" as they all start to harden after that..
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Sun Jun 9, 2013, 10:39pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Looking forward to your thoughts Chris and Dave. I'm going to be deciding on a dual boiler machine in the next 2-3 months, I've narrowed it down to the Duetto III and Dream T or Dream (though I'd have to engineer a water line solution, maybe a flojet+5 gallon water bottle). If the Vetrano 2B proves to be in the same class I'd be glad to add it to the list. All have their + and -.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,404
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jun 12, 2013, 7:05am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

Looking forward to your thoughts Chris and Dave. I'm going to be deciding on a dual boiler machine in the next 2-3 months, I've narrowed it down to the Duetto III and Dream T or Dream (though I'd have to engineer a water line solution, maybe a flojet+5 gallon water bottle). If the Vetrano 2B proves to be in the same class I'd be glad to add it to the list. All have their + and -.

Posted June 9, 2013 link

It's easy to fill and has a large internal tank, I doubt you would need to fill it more than once per day and probably a lot less......because you were not going to use it as a kettle were you?
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Jun 12, 2013, 11:14am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

It's easy to fill and has a large internal tank, I doubt you would need to fill it more than once per day and probably a lot less......because you were not going to use it as a kettle were you?

Posted June 12, 2013 link

Definitely not. My workflow consists of making a mocha twice a day, every day:
  1. Mix 2 tsp of hot water and TCHO chocolate in pre warmed cup.
  2. Pull 2oz double shot into mixture
  3. Steam 6oz of milk to create mocha

Then about once or twice a week I would entertain anywhere from 2-4 people who would want either an espresso, latte or cappuccino and I'd like it not to take 30 minutes like it currently does with my Silvia ;)

Initially cabinet height was a limiting factor (so I was a heavy lean towards the Dream T) but then I'd have to re-sell all my 58mm gear (bottomless PF and 19g VST). Since then I've decided I'm going to buy a separate cart/mini-table to hold the new machine so all options are back on the table.

My main concerns are:
  1. Consistent, high quality espresso extraction
  2. Powerful, dry steam which makes latte art quality milk
  3. Build quality and durability (The Dream T has a vibratory pump but people say it's a high quality one)
  4. Serviceability, ease of replacement part purchase and installation
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,404
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jun 12, 2013, 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

I don't think it's worth plumbing a DB machine in for that sort of usage...most hi end machines on the market will meet your requirements including the DB Quickmill (which produces great milk texture and dry steam). Plumbing a machine if you don't have to introduces extra complexity that is usually best avoided if you want an easy life. I use my machines far more than you and I have never felt the need to plumb them in. If it was an HX machine, then yes, it can be well worth plumbing them in.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jun 12, 2013, 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

chriscoffee Said:

Ours arrived late Friday afternoon I have not had a chance to even fire it up yet. We will on Monday. I am going to be doing a bunch of videos next week. We are doing videos on the New Carisma HX machine by Faema. The new precision shower screens for both E61 machines, and La Spaziale, plus precision insert baskets for La Spaziale. I will however find time to work with the Vetrano DB. Dave I would appreciate it if you would contact me about what exactly you found that could use improvements to be sure it is already on the machine I just received. We should compare notes even though 230 volt will perform differently than 110 volt.

Chris

Posted June 8, 2013 link

So how is the testing going so far???
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JaniceAnn
Senior Member


Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Jun 12, 2013, 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK;

So it would be better to leave the steam boiler off unless I am going to do milk and use my Zojiruchi hot water dispenser for my husband's Americanos?  It is always on and set for 195% to use for instant oatmeal, making the dogs' meals, tea if I am not making a whole pot with my wonderful Breville tea maker and that sort of thing.

I was thinking that the water from the hot water arm would be too hot and it does seem wasteful to leave the steam boiler on all the time for just the hot water a few times a day.

Stupid question, but would I get less scale in the steam boiler if it isn't kept on constantly?

I am still trying to decide between the Mini or Regular Vivaldi or the Duetto III.  My husband doesn't like the idea of having to have a five gallon bottle and a Flo-Jet to run the regular Vivaldi.  He also thinks that the Mini Vivaldi, because it is quite a bit less expensive than the Duetto III, is the way we should go.  I am still unsure.

The one point is that, if we got the Mini Vivaldi, we could afford to replace the Breville Smart Grinder, which we use for drip coffee, with a Baratza Vario.  If we get the Duetto III, we will have to live with the Breville for a while.

I hate making decisions!

When will you be posting your review on the new QM Double Boiler?  I have read your reviews on the Mini and Regular Vivaldi and the Duetto III and they are very interesting and most informative.  I printed them out so that I can re-read them and do comparisons to help choose the machine to buy.
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,404
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jun 12, 2013, 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

JaniceAnn Said:

DavecUK;

So it would be better to leave the steam boiler off unless I am going to do milk and use my Zojiruchi hot water dispenser for my husband's Americanos?  It is always on and set for 195% to use for instant oatmeal, making the dogs' meals, tea if I am not making a whole pot with my wonderful Breville tea maker and that sort of thing.

When will you be posting your review on the new QM Double Boiler?  I have read your reviews on the Mini and Regular Vivaldi and the Duetto III and they are very interesting and most informative.  I printed them out so that I can re-read them and do comparisons to help choose the machine to buy.

Posted June 12, 2013 link

Oh god yes, never use a DB coffee machine as a kettle, a kettle or specific hot water dispenser does a much better job of it than a coffee machine. You will of course get less scale as a product of using less water through the steam boiler. In addition switching the steam boiler on only when you need it is the way to go and will make everything last longer. The UK version of the QM Vetrano Dual boiler will be up to full steam pressure in under 3 minutes from cold. By the time you have ground the coffee got the cups ready and brewed the shot, you'll be ready to steam. The US version won't be that much slower. If you then try an hour or so later, it will only take a couple of minutes. So steaming is not an issue in terms of wait time and it doesn't justify leaving the steam boiler on all day long.

The copy protected (I copy protect them) review, should be posted on the Bella Barista site soon (I'm finishing it over the next few days), but it's up to them if they publish.....I review as I find, they publish if they want, but I don't write a sales review. As for which machine....it's difficult.

Big Vivaldi......why, and having a bottle and flojet is a hassle, doesn't sound like you want that
Mini Vivaldi....it's OK, I like the water tank system, but I don't like the fact that the entire steam boiler has to be replaced if the steam element fails. It also sounds like you want something a bit more sophisticated?
QM Dual Boiler - different style to the Vivaldis, more retro if you like that sort of thing....will probably look better in 10 years time as is a little more timeless and the steel always comes up well when you clean it.

All will make good coffee, the Vivaldis all steam exceptionally well. For my money though, you can't beat the standard 58mm group and parts availability for the QM, plus it's probably slightly easier to maintain and clean in general use. Yes it's more expensive for a Duetto III, or a QM Vetrano DB...BUT, you will have the machine for a VERY long time (think 15-20 years). Wait till the review is out then you can read all the reviews and make a decision on which suits your needs best......but budget should be slightly less important when you consider just how long you will own the machine!


As for the grinder....you have 2 choices. Grind with something not very good for a few more years, then eventually succumb and get a decent grinder, or get a decent grinder at the same time...strongly advised. This is because if you don't, you will spend 2-3 years with a bad grinder and when you get the good one think, I should have done this 2-3 years ago.


P.S. As always though, buy from a retailer with good backup and reputation, not a box shifter, because all these machines have a bought out warranty that is dealer supported!
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