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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
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cuznvin
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Joined: 6 Oct 2011
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Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 3:28pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

Because the rotary pumps RPM motor probably uses around 300W start up and 170W run current as opposed to the 48-52W of an Ulka vibration pump.  I'm not totally sure but US voltage is 115V nominal?, so on a 15A circuit that might run a bit close for comfort. Of course though, if I'm wrong and you can run a machine that close to the maximum....great all the better, but I think the Rotary pump might be what pushes it over the edge. It's probably more a regulation thing, because to be honest the loadings are brief and not for prolonged periods e.g. perhaps 20 seconds or so, so the small % over would probably be fine....but it's laws and regulations that your resellers have to follow. I'm not sure exactly what they are, but I assume Chris would have had 1200W elements in the Duettos for a very good reason....unless that has changed in recent years?

Posted May 22, 2013 link

Lets look at the R58.. TWO 1400 watt heaters and a rotary pump running on 15 amps.
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CSME9
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CSME9
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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Espresso: Isomac Tea, Rancilio Silvia,...
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Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 3:45pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

Lets look at the R58.. TWO 1400 watt heaters and a rotary pump running on 15 amps.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

And i believe the brew boiler does not pull water from the steam boiler to heat like other machines.
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,393
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 6:18pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

Lets look at the R58.. TWO 1400 watt heaters and a rotary pump running on 15 amps.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

CSME9 Said:

And i believe the brew boiler does not pull water from the steam boiler to heat like other machines.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

Then that's great news for you in the USA, if you can run a 1400W heater and stay within all local regulations.... excellent! I'm really hoping Chris likes it and you get the chance to buy it.

I'm not quite sure you mean CSME9 when you refer to the R58 vs other machines, the R58 does not preheat the brew water, but a lot of other DB machines don't do that either, some do, some don't?

e.g. the Brewtus does, partly because those were the steam boilers they had available and it made the plumbing simple, using what they already had. The Duetto does by design, Vivaldis don't, QM67 doesn't, Vetrano DB doesn't, R58 doesn't.

Ultimately it makes little difference unless the preheat system is not properly designed. It is mainly an issue of "capacity" for some machines rather than stability. if the brew boiler is small....under 500ml, then capacity may be an issue, even then it's a very small effect and you might have to wait 20-30 seconds for the boiler to stabilise. If the brew boiler is less than 300ml, then longer wait times may be required.  For brew boilers around the 750-800 ml mark, with heating elements correctly sized and larger, there is no real impact.l

There are however many many other things that make the difference between one machine over another. All these little things add up to the total ownership experience....one that can be 20 years or more. So that 200W on the heaters is just one of the "many" little things that contribute. A lot of the things most people will never worry about, but some are a real PITA when they do go wrong, the little extra thought, a few extra pennies/time spent  in the design stage can reduce a real headache for some people later on.

I remember the prototype Duetto I had came laden with strong threadlocker on all the fittings....I begged them to use PTFE tape on the fittings that might require changing as they age. Vacuum Breaker, Pressure relief valve etc.. I believe they have increasingly done this on fittings. Mine on the other had are really heavily threadlocked down tight as a drum. To get them off (without damaging the boilers) I will probably have to blowtorch the fittings. Either way I do it, all those dried up bits of threadlocker then crumble and fall into the boiler....just brilliant. However 6 years ago, the manufacturers really didn't care that much about what people might need to a few years down the road.

Even when you don't see all those "nice" things, it just makes the machine "feel" nice and keep feeling nice for many many years.
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Zevi
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Joined: 28 Mar 2013
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Posted Wed May 22, 2013, 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

Because the rotary pumps RPM motor probably uses around 300W start up and 170W run current as opposed to the 48-52W of an Ulka vibration pump.  I'm not totally sure but US voltage is 115V nominal?, so on a 15A circuit that might run a bit close for comfort.

Posted May 22, 2013 link

Nominal voltage in the US is 120v with +/-5% variation. A rotary pump typically uses a 1/3HP motor which is 250W (peak 300W ?). So a 1400W heater and a 250W pump come to 13.75Amp (or 14.5 if the voltage is -5%).
If this margin is good for the R58 - it should be good for the Vetrano 2B.

Hope that at some point you'll be able to tell us about the unique features of the new PID controller.

Cheers, Zevi
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
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Location: UK
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Posted Thu May 23, 2013, 3:28am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Zevi Said:

Nominal voltage in the US is 120v with +/-5% variation. A rotary pump typically uses a 1/3HP motor which is 250W (peak 300W ?). So a 1400W heater and a 250W pump come to 13.75Amp (or 14.5 if the voltage is -5%).
If this margin is good for the R58 - it should be good for the Vetrano 2B.

Hope that at some point you'll be able to tell us about the unique features of the new PID controller.

Cheers, Zevi

Posted May 22, 2013 link

yeah, it's probably more the 20 amp simultaneous setting I'm worried about in truth, where both boilers are on and working at the same time as in the UK, it's just something you never have to worry about in the UK, it's a complete non issue for us. However, I am really unfamiliar with your 20 amp circuits, I don't know if that's nominal, is it more than 20A, is the wires feeding it thicker than juist required for 20A, are there insurance issues etc.. In fact are there 25A, or 30A circuits.

In the UK we can have 30, 40 60 etc.. whatever we want on dedicated spurs. Fuses and MCBs have an overload time before they blow. So a device that is niminally within the wattage rating, if it has a short period where there is a higher draw than when running e.g. motor startup, then the circuit MCB, fuse etc.. can handle that witout tripping/blowing

As for the unique feature/s, I can when I've tested it and know whether it's going to be in the machines or not, because as I explained to QM, you can't "uninvent" an idea and people are going to copy ideas, you cannot prevent that, especially on a 3rd party controller. My concern is...the current one works just fine, this new version "might" be better. Sometimes things get snafud and work worse. Any improvement is likely to be again, one of those little additive improvements I talked about earlier. Any one on it's own has little effect, but take them all together and....so, if it's not right, we're not really loosing anything too significant.
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__________
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Posted Thu May 23, 2013, 4:17am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Zevi Said:

Nominal voltage in the US is 120v with +/-5% variation. A rotary pump typically uses a 1/3HP motor which is 250W (peak 300W ?). So a 1400W heater and a 250W pump come to 13.75Amp (or 14.5 if the voltage is -5%).

Posted May 22, 2013 link

Lower voltage means lower amperage - not higher -  so even less likely to be problematic if voltage is a bit low.
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cuznvin
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Joined: 6 Oct 2011
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Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
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Posted Thu May 23, 2013, 7:39am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

yeah, it's probably more the 20 amp simultaneous setting I'm worried about in truth, where both boilers are on and working at the same time as in the UK, it's just something you never have to worry about in the UK, it's a complete non issue for us. However, I am really unfamiliar with your 20 amp circuits, I don't know if that's nominal, is it more than 20A, is the wires feeding it thicker than juist required for 20A, are there insurance issues etc.. In fact are there 25A, or 30A circuits.

In the UK we can have 30, 40 60 etc.. whatever we want on dedicated spurs. Fuses and MCBs have an overload time before they blow. So a device that is niminally within the wattage rating, if it has a short period where there is a higher draw than when running e.g. motor startup, then the circuit MCB, fuse etc.. can handle that witout tripping/blowing

As for the unique feature/s, I can when I've tested it and know whether it's going to be in the machines or not, because as I explained to QM, you can't "uninvent" an idea and people are going to copy ideas, you cannot prevent that, especially on a 3rd party controller. My concern is...the current one works just fine, this new version "might" be better. Sometimes things get snafud and work worse. Any improvement is likely to be again, one of those little additive improvements I talked about earlier. Any one on it's own has little effect, but take them all together and....so, if it's not right, we're not really loosing anything too significant.

Posted May 23, 2013 link

So this machine doesnt cycle the power back and forth between boilers like the QM67?
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu May 23, 2013, 9:12am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

yeah, it's probably more the 20 amp simultaneous setting I'm worried about in truth, where both boilers are on and working at the same time as in the UK, it's just something you never have to worry about in the UK, it's a complete non issue for us. However, I am really unfamiliar with your 20 amp circuits, I don't know if that's nominal, is it more than 20A, is the wires feeding it thicker than juist required for 20A, are there insurance issues etc.. In fact are there 25A, or 30A circuits.

Posted May 23, 2013 link

Circuits availability? You know the saying: "This is America - you can do anything!" :-)  There's building "code" that tells you what wiring you must use to run a given Amp circuit, and as long as you follow that -- you're good to go. Yes, with 220v you got a lot of juice to work with in the UK, so running both heaters is not a big concern. In fact, in the US we can have (and quite a few homes DO have) 220v circuits for running heavy loads such as big water or laundry heaters, water pumps, furnaces, etc. All machine-shops have 220v to run welders, etc.

DavecUK Said:

As for the unique feature/s, I can when I've tested it and know whether it's going to be in the machines or not, because as I explained to QM, you can't "uninvent" an idea and people are going to copy ideas, you cannot prevent that, especially on a 3rd party controller. My concern is...the current one works just fine, this new version "might" be better. Sometimes things get snafud and work worse. Any improvement is likely to be again, one of those little additive improvements I talked about earlier. Any one on it's own has little effect, but take them all together and....so, if it's not right, we're not really loosing anything too significant.

Posted May 23, 2013 link

Couldn't agree more about the "uninvent" and the potential for a bad combination of good ideas; been there, done that... :-(

__________ Said:

Lower voltage means lower amperage - not higher -  so even less likely to be problematic if voltage is a bit low.

Posted May 23, 2013 link

Well, yes -  I misspoke; if you provide lower voltage to a 1400w heating element it will draw less current and therefore heat at a lower power. What I meant was, that if you want to keep the same heating power with less voltage, the device must draw more current..

cuznvin Said:

So this machine doesnt cycle the power back and forth between boilers like the QM67?

Posted May 23, 2013 link

Maybe in the UK, but in the US it must be cycling. There's no way the R58 will have both 1400w elements heating at their rated power at the same time! I think that the QM67 simply shows you via the lights this "flickering" action, while the R58 does it "under the hood". Of course, there's the possibility that Rocket has some special circuitry to run both heaters simultaneously at a lower power, but that would probably be proprietary.

Cheers, Zevi.
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Sigma
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Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 23, 2013, 9:52am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Of course, there's the possibility that Rocket has some special circuitry to run both heaters simultaneously at a lower power, but that would probably be proprietary.

I cannot recall where I read it, but this was the distinct impression I got when researching this machine. I would love to hear a confirmation of this, if possible.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Thu May 23, 2013, 10:29am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Sigma Said:

I cannot recall where I read it, but this was the distinct impression I got when researching this machine. I would love to hear a confirmation of this, if possible.

Posted May 23, 2013 link

I dont think both heaters run at the same time. Nor do they do on the QM67
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