Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,317 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:25am Subject: Please read before you post New Machine buying question.
Welcome to CoffeeGeek!
You have come here for answers and this post has a lot of them along with some questions. After you read this post and answered your questions please post a new thread with your answers and ask for buying advice based on your needs and budget. You do not have to read the whole thread just this post.
We get a lot new threads every week that start with "I want to get a cheap, good quality, long lasting espresso machine that I will not outgrow and I will not spend over X number of dollars". Most people don't want to spend over $300 dollars on the machine and have no budget at all for the grinder.
Espresso is not the only way to get very high quality coffee, and is probably the most expensive route. Other options (from most expensive to cheapest) include high quality automatic drip machines and single cup brewers, vacuum pot/siphon pots, moka pots, French press, Aeropress and manual drip cones, among others. All of these options will also need a good grinder suitable for the brewing style, but this is generally cheaper than a good espresso capable grinder. Whatever your brew method, the biggest improvement in your coffee may well come from using freshly and well roasted high quality coffee beans, ground just before brewing. (suggested by Dyqik)
Here's the "Little Rule of Fifteen" I learned from this site: (suggested by Darkow)
Green coffee is good for about 15 months from the day it was picked Roasted coffee, whole, is good for about 15 days from the time it was roasted Ground coffee is good for about 15 minutes from the time it was ground
Hard Fact Number One, buying an espresso machine is more like getting a refrigerator or dishwasher or a high end stand mixer than it is like replacing your Mr Coffee Machine. It has a boiler, under pressure and has a lot of metal in it. So it will not be like a cheap mostly plastic drip coffee maker. It can't be because of how it is made and what it is made out of. And frankly a boiler under pressure could be dangerous if not well constructed.
Hard Fact Number Two, you need a grinder. Not just any grinder will do. Not every grinder that says it can do espresso really can. And just because it has one setting for espresso doesn't mean it is good for espresso. You need a range of settings on the grinder because beans change over time and you have to change the grind to compensate. You will want that range to have small adjustments so you can tweak it as the beans age. Large adjustments or steps make it hard to make the fine changes needed to keep your cup constant. Consistency is the name of the game and everything you try to do is all for the sake of keeping the variables consistent.
Hard Fact Number Three, the grinder is more important than the machine. The grinder affects the flavor in the cup more than the machine. You can have a $3,000 dollar machine and a $30 blade chopper grinder and not get good espresso. But you can have a $1,000 dollar grinder and $400 machine and get good espresso. It is not uncommon to spend more on the grinder than the low end starter machine. Good espresso electric grinders start about $350. You can get hand grinders for $40 that will work. Getting your coffee ground at the shop and taking it home will not give you good espresso. You have to be able to adjust the grind for your machine and in 15 minutes the coffee is stale and you will not get the crema you would with fresh ground coffee.
A bit more information would help us help you. I will paste some standard questions from JasonBrandtLewis on the forum by his permission.
Standard Questions: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at any one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pour over machine with its own reservoir? 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? 6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
And
"So, let's start at the beginning, OK?
ONE way to classify espresso machines is by their method/mechanism/capabilities for producing the shot.
-- Manual machines do not have a pump. They rely on the operator to force the water through the puck by use of a lever. With some machines, the lever is controlled manually by the operator -- like with the La Pavoni Europicola, or the Olympia Cremina. The operator lifts the lever up and pulls it down, pushing the water through the puck. With other machines, the lever may be spring-operated, like with the Elektra Micro Casa a Leva, the Bezzera B2006AL, or the Rancilio Class 6 LE models, in which the lever is controlled by a spring -- the operator pulls the lever down, and then a spring draws the lever back to the "up" position, moving the piston and forcing the water through the puck.
-- Semi-automatic machines have a pump to force the water through the puck, but the operator turns the pump on-and-off. Examples would include the machines like Gaggia Classic, the Faema Legend (the original E61 machine), or the Izzo Alex Duetto II -- which are, respectively, an SDBU, an HX, and a DB machine -- all in semi-automatic formats.
-- Full-automatic machines, also known as volumetric dosing machines, have a pump to force the water through the puck, like a semi-auto, but after a certain volume of water is dispensed (programmed by the operator), the pump will shut itself off automatically. HOWEVER, the pump can also be shut off manually, just as with a semi-automatic. Examples would include the Bezzera BZ07sde, the Elektra Sixties T1, and the La Marzocco Linea AV models. Each of these , by the way, is also produced as a semi-automatic -- the Bezzera BZ07spm, the Elektra Sixties A3 (now discontinued, although plenty of other semi-autos are still made by Elektra), and the La Marzocco Linea EE models.
-- Super-automatic machines do everything for the user, who merely has to push a button, wait, and drink. These machines will grind the beans, tamp the puck, push the water through the grounds, froth the milk . . . everything. Examples include everything from a Gaggia Titanium, the Jura-Capresso Impressa S9, and the Faema X3 Prestige.
THEN you can classify machines by their boiler type (and please note, I am ignoring thermoblock units):
-- Open boiler machines are relatively rare, and date back many decades. These can heat the water for espresso, but cannot build up any pressure to steam milk. To the best of my knowledge, this are all manual lever machines, and include machines like the Arrarex Caravel and the FE-AR La Peppina.
-- Single Boiler Dual Use (SBDU) machines are the most popular machines for home use. These have one boiler and two thermostats; the boiler will either heat the water within to brewing temperature or to steaming temperature. The operator must wait for the boiler to move up/move down before continuing, i.e.: the machine can only brew or it can steam milk -- one or the other -- at a time. The best known example, at least here in the States, would be the Rancilio Silvia
-- Heat Exchanger (HX) machines also have one boiler, but it is permanently set to steaming temperature. Cool water, either from a built-in reservoir ("tank") or from a water line ("plumbed-in" or "direct connect"), is then flash heated to brew temp via the use of a heat exchanger. Examples would include machines like the Izzo Alex II, Quick Mill Anita, or the Vibiemme Domobar Super.
-- Double Boiler (DB) machines have two boilers, one for heating the brewing water, the other for making steam. Examples would include the Izzo Alex Duetto II, the La Spaziale Vivaldi II, or the Vibiemme Double Domobar v.3.
ALSO, machines can be classified by their components, if you will, and their target market.
-- Consumer machines are just that, designed for home use by the consumer.
-- Professional (or commercial) machines are designed for high-volume use in busy cafés, restaurants, etc. They use more robust parts than consumer models, able to withstand their heavy, constant usage.
-- "Prosumer" machines fill in the gap; they are actually low-volume commercial machines that can also by used in a home environment.
So you can have a commercial lever machine, or a consumer lever machine; a full-automatic HX prosumer model, as well as a full-auto HX commercial model, and so on and so on and so on . . . .
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
Budget: Do you own a grinder: What are your needs (choose all that apply): Multiple consecutive shots, milk based drinks, Ultra-control, low profile, occasional use, must be pretty. what is your experience: Where are you located: Etc.
we could make a basic check box form, that can eliminate a lot of confusion and make matching a lot easier, and clearer to explain.
Anthony C
Currently pulling: -espresso- Social Coffee Co. (Ontario, Canada): -Peoples Liberation -Peoples Daily -El Socorro Palo Blanco Espresso
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,317 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:53am Subject: Re: Please read before you post New Machine buying question.
I thought about that link but I think most people are impatient and Jason's post covers a lot of it in a condensed way. And I think my hard facts boil down some of the more important take aways.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 1:48pm Subject: Re: Please read before you post New Machine buying question.
That's very good, and hopefully will help.
Since this is CoffeeGeek and not just EspressoGeek ;) , I'd consider adding in something to the effect of "Espresso is not the only way to get very high quality coffee, and is probably the most expensive route. Other options (from most expensive to cheapest) include high quality automatic drip machines and single cup brewers, vacuum pot/siphon pots, moka pots, French press, Aeropress and manual drip cones, among others. All of these options will also need a good grinder suitable for the brewing style, but this is generally cheaper than a good espresso capable grinder. Whatever your brew method, the biggest improvement in your coffee may well come from using freshly and well roasted high quality coffee beans, ground just before brewing."
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 