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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Mon Mar 11, 2013, 9:26pm
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

Not really trying to wow you, just keep you interested in Gaggia. :)  PID will help, and make it better and easier, but Gaggia will still be SBDU.  Your use can certainly outgrow it and then you will be fanboy for something else  :(

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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jimboc
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Sydney
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: mypressi twist
Grinder: Baratza Precico
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 3:19am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

Jmanespresso Said:

The key to amazing, pro level microfoam, is simple really.  Bone Dry Steam, constant steam pressure, and good technique.  The faster you can inject air into the milk, and the sooner you can start rolling the milk, the better the microfoam will be.  If you have to stretch all the way to 100F, and then roll to 160F, your milk will not be nearly as silky and sweet as if you can be done injecting air in the first two or three seconds, before the milk even gets lukewarm, and the roll the milk the entire way up to 160F..  Assuming you injected the right amount of air, your milk will be textbook level perfection.

Posted March 11, 2013 link

Great to hear this. Thanks.

Boiler pressure dropping during steaming.

Some random thoughts, please feel free to correct as this is a new world to me.

I've just had a bit of play this afternoon with a Bellman steamer. It's a 1.2L canister and I filled it with 800mL. That's a reasonable size I guess compared to the Silvia's 360mL boiler, but well short of the 2L in the Oscar that Markarian mentioned was a talented steamer, or 15-17L boilers I see in some of the 2-3 group machines. (Any idea if boiler sizes quoted for coffee machines are the canister size or the water level?)

The biggest issue I see with a stovetop steamer such as the Bellman is pressure dropping rather than the boiler size. The maximum gas flame I could heat with on a domestic hob I calculated to be the equivalent of about a 300-330W immersion heater type boiler. About a third of the power of the Silvia's 952W heater.

From what I've read the Bellman builds up to about 2.2 bar before the pressure relief kicks in. Opening the steam valve at that point will dump some good steam into the milk, but the gas hob just can't keep up and it feels pretty gutless during the 60 sec or so of heating after stretching for 4oz of milk.

The Silvia, from its heater size and wattage, sounds to me like it's not that powerful to start with but at least it doesn't radically drop in output. Is that accurate?

The Oscar has a 1200W heater. Take some of that off for the heat exchanger and the heater isn't too far off the Silvia. I guess the Oscar doesn't need a bigger heater because the milk is steamed and done with before the heater is asked to keep up. This configuration sounds good.

So it seems like there are quite a few variables.

Pressure is interesting too. At 2.2 bar water boils at 123C (254F), so the steam coming out would be hotter than a 1-1.2 bar, heating the milk quicker. Sounds good, but could the resulting steam temperature here hitting the milk be hot enough to kill sweetness and make the foam overly stiff?
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Markarian
Senior Member
Markarian
Joined: 27 Jun 2012
Posts: 658
Location: Seattle Area
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: ECM Technika IV Profi WT-WC
Grinder: Baratza Forte AP, HG One
Vac Pot: Bunn Trifecta MB
Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Hario V60
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 4:27am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if I am actually correct in stating the Oscar's 2.3L boiler is the largest in a "home" HX machine, that is, one that isn't exclusively plumbed?
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Jmanespresso
Senior Member
Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2,109
Location: Westchester NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario
Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5
Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 5:20am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

Actually, no its not.

The Vibiemme Domobar Super HX is 2.7L.  Its a damn monster.

and while I dont agree that direct plumb means not a home machine, but the Domobar Super HX, comes in regular old reservoir/vibe pump models too.

but, yes, the Oscar is one of the biggest boiler pourover HX machines.  Most are 1.X Liters.

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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jimboc
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Sydney
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: mypressi twist
Grinder: Baratza Precico
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 6:32am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

I've seen some specs listing the Oscar with a 2.3L boiler and others with a 2.0L.  Even SCG say it's 2.3L in one video and 2.0L in another. Maybe the confusion is because the water tank is 2.3L?
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,277
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 7:55am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

I am not a fan boy of a machine, a prescribed formula, method per se,I AM A FAN OF THE BEAN The term fan boy
you can keep for yourself my freind.



D4F Said:

Not really trying to wow you, just keep you interested in Gaggia. :)  PID will help, and make it better and easier, but Gaggia will still be SBDU.  Your use can certainly outgrow it and then you will be fanboy for something else  :(

Posted March 11, 2013 link

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steamer
Senior Member
steamer
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 900
Location: socal
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus IV R
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-B Baratza...
Vac Pot: Krubs Moka Brew, vacPot
Drip: TechV, and many more
Roaster: Hottop
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 9:17am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

Jmanespresso Said:

You should be able to hold your hand under the steam for a little bit before any condensation forms.  

Posted March 11, 2013 link

Please do not try this, intense pain will evolved shortly there after.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,021
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 9:20am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

Iluvdabean Said:

I am not a fan boy of a machine, a prescribed formula, method per se,I AM A FAN OF THE BEAN The term fan boy
you can keep for yourself my freind.

Posted March 12, 2013 link

No offense was meant, thus the :)  Sorry.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,277
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Mar 12, 2013, 10:25am
Subject: Re: Reputable steamers
 

OK my Gaggia brother.

D4F Said:

No offense was meant, thus the :)  Sorry.

Posted March 12, 2013 link

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