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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Help is needed...  
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gearbolt
Senior Member
gearbolt
Joined: 9 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: San Jose, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Mahlkonig K30 Vario
Vac Pot: Kona
Roaster: TBD
Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 2:10am
Subject: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

Hi all,

I have my Duetto almost 4 weeks now and have some questions.

1.I remember my brewing pressure was kept very constant during
the shot at around 9.5.  However,  recently I found it will jump to 10
a bit later after I flip the switch.  (Initially, it was 9.5 but then moved
to 10 and kept at 10.)   It should not be normal, right?

  1. The brewing temp was 200f initially set by the store.  I found that
    the PID temp number was not always @200f.  Sometimes , it can go to
    206f without me pulling the shot or operating the steam.  But most of
    time, it will not be around 200f.  (I think it spent most time around 203,
    204, or 205.)  I change the Brewing temp to 199 and 198f and the brewing
    temp still has the similar pattern as before of NOT sitting in the expected
  2.  I always let the machine warm up for at least 45 minutes.  I even
    let it on overnight to have at least 12 hours.  But still, the machine seems
    not hitting the set temp value.  For example,  I set it to 198f but after 12
    hours, the temp display showed 200 or 203f and no where near the 198f.

Can any one shine some lights on my questions?  I understand the concept
of PID but I am disappointed by its degree of performance/accuracy.   (I have
some knowledge of system and feedback control due to my works).  I can't
believe this is the result of a PID controlled machine.

Thanks for the help in advance.

Cheers,
David



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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

There is not enough information in your post and any replies you get with solutions at this point will simply be a "fishing" trip....we need a lot more information

  1. What are your PID parameter settings P, I D etc.. values set to.

  2. Is your machine plumbed in or running off the internal tank

  3. what does the brew pressure do when pulling against a blind filter.

  4. Are you looking at the brew pressure with the steam boiler sometimes on and sometimes off, because this will change pressure behaviour due to water expansion/or not if it's preheated.

Those 4 little questions will help me a lot in terms of helping you or referring you back to the dealer

Dave
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gearbolt
Senior Member
gearbolt
Joined: 9 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: San Jose, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Mahlkonig K30 Vario
Vac Pot: Kona
Roaster: TBD
Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 7:22pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

DavecUK Said:

There is not enough information in your post and any replies you get with solutions at this point will simply be a "fishing" trip....we need a lot more information

What are your PID parameter settings P, I D etc.. values set to.

Is your machine plumbed in or running off the internal tank

what does the brew pressure do when pulling against a blind filter.

Are you looking at the brew pressure with the steam boiler sometimes on and sometimes off, because this will change pressure behaviour due to water expansion/or not if it's preheated.

Those 4 little questions will help me a lot in terms of helping you or referring you back to the dealer

Dave

Posted March 3, 2013 link

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the response.   More info related to your questions are below:

  1. P=1.3, I=0.06, D=1.5
       These numbers are also the same as the ones in the Duetto user manual.  I did not change them at all.
       I only changed the brewing and steaming temp.

  2. I am using the Duetto with the internal tank, not plumbed.  BTW, my machine is 15A setup.

  3. The brewing pressure is right @ 9.5 bars for a blind double filter.  It is the number I observed before if
       I remember it correctly because initially I had concern with the 9.5 bars since I wanted to start with 9.0
       bars but eventually I did not change it.  Tried to keep most of the parameters fixed at the beginning.

  4. In all of my test cases, the steam boiler is ALWAYS turned on since my primary drink is capp.

I have no clue at this moment.  I checked my PID temp display couple of times within an hour and none of them
are @ 198F ( I set it to be 198F).  Most of them are 200, 202, 203F.   I am not sure how accurate it should be
but reading post related to espresso and temp is an important factor in making good espresso.  I can't imagine
the tolerance can be such big range.    

Your help is definitely much appreciated.  Thanks again.

Regards,
David
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

gearbolt Said:

Hi Dave,


In all of my test cases, the steam boiler is ALWAYS turned on since my primary drink is capp.

I have no clue at this moment.  I checked my PID temp display couple of times within an hour and none of them
are @ 198F ( I set it to be 198F).  Most of them are 200, 202, 203F.   I am not sure how accurate it should be
but reading post related to espresso and temp is an important factor in making good espresso.  I can't imagine
the tolerance can be such big range.    

Your help is definitely much appreciated.  Thanks again.

Regards,
David

Posted March 3, 2013 link

It's possible Izzo have been buggering around with the design and not telling anyone.  Try these settings, the larger derivative should settle things down a little.

P=1.7 I=0.04 D=8.0

If that doesn't help try the other UK settings here

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/izzo-alex-duetto-pid-settings

I wouldn't worry about a few F in the brew boiler, remember the E61 group will stabilise that completely to the boiler average (it's such a large heat sink). Some other machine have huge variations in the brew boiler in comparison. e.g. an old Vivalid S1 wouldn't even show an overshoot above what the boiler was set to... The range is quite large for espresso, I wouldn't worry about the I could taste peaches at 202.3 and at 202.4 I could taste dangleberries. That sort of talk is cobblers and used for marketing (plus a lot of those machines are not as stable as claimed). Even if the brew boiler varied 202 - 204 averaging 203, it won't be a problem as the intra-shot temperature won't vary for the 30 or 60ml pulled. In fact it takes around 10 minutes for a change of temperature to properly "bed in" and be reflected in the shot.

I would expect 200 - 202 variance for a well tuned system (that's what I get, well i get slightly less), I suppose it could be 1F larger on one not tuned so well. Of course my old UK model has a pressurestat and does not apportion time between the boilers. e.g. your 15A mode. Even so, it shouldn't' make a massive difference. Interestingly the latest UK model I was checking seemed to timeslice between the brew and steam boiler whether it was on or not! I really wish they would use a proper dual channel PID on ALL these prosumer machines (not just Izzo) and not use a shared set of parameters.

P.S. Oh and try the concept of turning the steam boiler off when not in use as you could always plan ahead a tad and turn it on before that capp. If you want 2 caps within 20 minutes or so, then the warm up time will be very short. My boiler is quite well insulated and my warm up after nearly an hour is only a couple of minutes (UKL advantage of course). You'll thank me in 6 years time.
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gearbolt
Senior Member
gearbolt
Joined: 9 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: San Jose, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Mahlkonig K30 Vario
Vac Pot: Kona
Roaster: TBD
Posted Sun Mar 3, 2013, 9:02pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

DavecUK Said:

It's possible Izzo have been buggering around with the design and not telling anyone.  Try these settings, the larger derivative should settle things down a little.

P=1.7 I=0.04 D=8.0

If that doesn't help try the other UK settings here

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/izzo-alex-duetto-pid-settings

I wouldn't worry about a few F in the brew boiler, remember the E61 group will stabilise that completely to the boiler average (it's such a large heat sink). Some other machine have huge variations in the brew boiler in comparison. e.g. an old Vivalid S1 wouldn't even show an overshoot above what the boiler was set to... The range is quite large for espresso, I wouldn't worry about the I could taste peaches at 202.3 and at 202.4 I could taste dangleberries. That sort of talk is cobblers and used for marketing (plus a lot of those machines are not as stable as claimed). Even if the brew boiler varied 202 - 204 averaging 203, it won't be a problem as the intra-shot temperature won't vary for the 30 or 60ml pulled. In fact it takes around 10 minutes for a change of temperature to properly "bed in" and be reflected in the shot.

I would expect 200 - 202 variance for a well tuned system (that's what I get, well i get slightly less), I suppose it could be 1F larger on one not tuned so well. Of course my old UK model has a pressurestat and does not apportion time between the boilers. e.g. your 15A mode. Even so, it shouldn't' make a massive difference. Interestingly the latest UK model I was checking seemed to timeslice between the brew and steam boiler whether it was on or not! I really wish they would use a proper dual channel PID on ALL these prosumer machines (not just Izzo) and not use a shared set of parameters.

P.S. Oh and try the concept of turning the steam boiler off when not in use as you could always plan ahead a tad and turn it on before that capp. If you want 2 caps within 20 minutes or so, then the warm up time will be very short. My boiler is quite well insulated and my warm up after nearly an hour is only a couple of minutes (UKL advantage of course). You'll thank me in 6 years time.

Posted March 3, 2013 link

Hi Dave,

I had changed the P.I.D parameters and is giving the machine more time to stable.  I will report back the results tomorrow.
I will also try turning off the steam boiler.    Well, also for the sake of saving energy.  :)

Can you also shine some lights on the changing brew pressure?    Right after I flip the brewing lever, the pressure is @ 9.5 bars
but then it will move further up to 10bars.   I don't remember I observed this when I first got the machine.  It was @ about 9.5
bars.  Does it have anything to do with the type of coffee since I do change the coffee recently?  It shouldn't be, right?

Thank you very much for your help.

Cheers,
David
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Mar 4, 2013, 1:30am
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

gearbolt Said:

Can you also shine some lights on the changing brew pressure?    Right after I flip the brewing lever, the pressure is @ 9.5 bars
but then it will move further up to 10bars.   I don't remember I observed this when I first got the machine.  It was @ about 9.5
bars.  Does it have anything to do with the type of coffee since I do change the coffee recently?  It shouldn't be, right?

Thank you very much for your help.

Cheers,
David

Posted March 3, 2013 link

For the same reason the pressure rises in the PMPF

Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com)
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gearbolt
Senior Member
gearbolt
Joined: 9 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: San Jose, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Mahlkonig K30 Vario
Vac Pot: Kona
Roaster: TBD
Posted Mon Mar 4, 2013, 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

Hi DavecUK,

Your PID setting is definitely helping my case.  After I set them, the max overshoot will not reach 206F and
it is closer to the 198F (the brewing temp I set).  It occasionally will shot up to 202F but it will be quickly bring
back down toward the 198F.   Well, my observation is not scientific at all , just eye-balling it.  But this setting
is definitely giving my machine more stable feel.  Thanks for your help.

Initially, what concerned me most is that how can I know the temp is lowered if the PID displayed temp is fluctuated
so much.  If the controller does have issues, how would I know.   I thought the PID would show the actually brewing
temp with the offset factored in.   But I guess the directly measuring the group may be difficult to do in terms of cost
or design.  

I also wonder why other Duetto owners do not voice out the concern.  Well, maybe I am the only one has the wrong
impression of the PID temp accuracy or its implication from the beginning.  :)

Now I am sitting besides the machine and the brewing temp does appear more in the region of 198F +- 2F.   I feel
much better now.  One more question, by setting the D so large, it should affect the dynamic response, such as after
pulling a shot? And increasing the P is a way to remedy it?

Thank you again for your help.  May I know your profession if that is OK with you?  You seem know very well of the
hardware part of the espresso machine.  ;)

Regards,
David
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 2,747
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, 2 Macap M4s, OE...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Mon Mar 4, 2013, 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

I have a DII. I have not seen the issues you describe in the Temp displays/PID settings. I also have not had pressure issues at the group like you describe. As Dave suggested, maybe Izzo did something recently on the newest batch?

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,326
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:10pm
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

gearbolt Said:

I also wonder why other Duetto owners do not voice out the concern.  Well, maybe I am the only one has the wrong
impression of the PID temp accuracy or its implication from the beginning.  :)

Now I am sitting besides the machine and the brewing temp does appear more in the region of 198F +- 2F.   I feel
much better now.  One more question, by setting the D so large, it should affect the dynamic response, such as after
pulling a shot? And increasing the P is a way to remedy it?

Thank you again for your help.  May I know your profession if that is OK with you?  You seem know very well of the
hardware part of the espresso machine.  ;)

Regards,
David

Posted March 4, 2013 link

Well people are not concerned because of studies like these Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com) the Duetto is very stable and quite accurate on temperature. In all the machines I have reviewed and tested (within the prosumer price range), I have yet to find something that performs better, or even as well. The offset is used because that's the best way to have your specific machine accurate at the group rather than hard coded within the PID, you might need 10C, someone else might need 11C, another 9C. This flexibility is useful. Embedded probes in the group are difficult and don't again necessarily measure brew temperature any more accurately. To check your offset use this method (obviously making corrections for any significant heights above sea level). Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com) it's more accurate than most methods and doesn't cost anything, or require any special equipment.

I had quite a bit to do with the design of the first Duettos....unfortunately there has been a lot of fiddling about with it rather than real incremental change. I think a LOT more can be done with Dual boiler machines....but perhaps not yet. I am retired (I retired quite young) and I do a bit of consultancy on Coffee machines, Coffee machine design, Roasters, Roaster design...that sort of thing. Although I get paid, I don't do it for the money, if I wanted/needed the money, I would consult in my old profession, which was nothing to do with engineering.

It's difficult for me to say here whether your machine is OK, but it seems that it's probably working well now.....see how it goes over the next 6 months as you and the machine get to know each other.

Best of luck

Dave

P.S. There are a few machines coming, where I hope one will be the equal of the Duetto, but look phsyically nicer and the other perhaps better (but the one that might be better, is some way off and from a new manufacturer of machines).
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:04am
Subject: Re: Help is needed for my Duetto 3
 

My temp swings on the read out for the D3 are tighter but still a swing of +/- 2f with a peak of 3f. This concerned me a lot the first few weeks with a new machine and after talking with techs at CCS I calmed down and just tasted shots for the next few weeks. Shots pulled at the same setting tasted uniform to me. Adjusting the brew temp up or down by 1f I was able to taste a difference, this has been very helpful dialing in bitter/sour balance I want.

Dave thank you for posting this info! I am all for experimenting and learning my equipment  better.
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