coffeestig Junior Member Joined: 25 Feb 2013 Posts: 60 Location: Charlotte Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Quick Mill QM67 Grinder: Mazzer Mini Electronic... Drip: French Press
Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:37pm Subject: Considerations for a machine. (specific to 15A users especially)
First off... I'm sorry for making so many threads and hope they are not too redundant.
This is helping me as I study options and I thought unique enough to help others potentially in the same boat.
After speaking with the guy at Chris's Coffee he made a great point. Machines such as the R58, Alex Duetto and the like have options for 15 or 20 amp circuits as well as plumbing vs. not. Their prices reflect the needed equipment to run all of or some of these variables. There is one machine he mentioned (I'm sure there are others as well) that I had not considered that would perhaps be a better fit for a smaller investment since it is tank only and 15A only. Also since this machine was designed for 15A is could be more efficient since the others are intended for 20A and compromising adjustments 'allow' 15A electricity. In other words more expensive machines include hardware that I'm (and perhaps others) not going to use. The QM67 is what he said may be a machine for me since it has the copper boilers, PID, brass fittings, E-61 grouphead and everything I was looking for with the exception of a rotary pump.
He also echoed and highlighted that if I was considering something like the R58 then I would by far have a better experience stepping up my grinder. He recommended the Mazzer Mini Electronic Doserless Espresso Grinder Type B specifically as a starting point for this caliber of machine.
To summarize... its interesting to consider why a machine costs a certain amount and really have someone walk through the features that will actually get used. I'm probably going to spend the same money just more on the grinder...
fredk01 Senior Member Joined: 20 Feb 2012 Posts: 116 Location: Canada Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Saeco Aroma Grinder: OE Pharos
Posted Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:59pm Subject: Re: Considerations for a machine. (specific to 15A users especially)
coffeestig Said:
...To summarize... its interesting to consider why a machine costs a certain amount and really have someone walk through the features that will actually get used...
Agreed. If you are only going to make a few drinks per day, do you really need huge boilers and a machine that can crank out drink after drink all day long? As a beginner, are you going to be able to steam and pull shots at the same time, let alone need to?
I can be a bit obsessive about looking at need vs want, but I've never had buyers remorse on a major purchase.
Rather soonish, yes. And, yes. The coordination comes along once the desire to have the drink come together in a timely fashion is realized. The need to is part and parcel of the best values of presenting smooth micro foam with the freshest espresso. The benefit is if you are preparing drinks for more than just you, the time taken is by far shorter. Again, YMMV.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,683 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 1:44pm Subject: Re: Considerations for a machine. (specific to 15A users especially)
I guess it comes down to pay me now or pay me much more later. Your choice.
My preference is for a HX machine rather than a DB but if that is your flavor of choice, may you be forever happy with it.
Plumb in is a GREAT feature as is auto dosing. The rotary pump will have a much longer life all things considered but will cost more to replace as well as buy up front. Many do not taste a difference between which type of pump is installed. I can't, if it makes a solid, constant non pulsing 9 bar, then it is producing 9 bar and all is well with the world.
Machines that run on 20 a have larger heaters for the most part. A DB machine must power 2 heaters where a HX has only one and a much larger boiler. One type of machine (HX, DB) is not better than the other or visa versa, it comes down to personal preference, plain and simple.
The same can be said for group head design, the E61 has been around since, well, 1961. Other designs that work as well or some would say better, have been invented since. that is not to say that the E61s days are over, not at all, that is what I have and I love it. I also have commercial machines that do not have the E61 and they work just fine too.
A DB machine that runs on 15 a either has small heaters or a control setup that cycles one then the other boiler to run where a 20a machine may not. A 110v machine for the most part is designed for home use or very light commercial use. Regular commercial machines are 220v and have no worries about 15 or 20 a circuits.
Features you will not use? Well, if they are not there, then you positively will not use them. If you have them, you may soon find yourself enjoying a feature you never knew you even wanted. YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Jmanespresso Senior Member Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 2,108 Location: Westchester NY Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Alex Duetto II Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5 Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 5:06pm Subject: Re: Considerations for a machine. (specific to 15A users especially)
The QM67 is a solid choice no doubt. I owned two Quickmill HXs, and despite my preference for a dual boiler, I still loved both machines. If the QM67 was rotary, I would have bought it. Ive been very pleased with Quickmill and Im sure the QM67 keeps the tradition going.
The suggestion to get a better grinder to go with one of these machines is right on. A prosumer level machine should have a commercial level grinder next to it, no doubt in my mind.
I dont think the Mazzer Mini Electronic is a bad grinder, by any means.. I just think that for nearly $1K, there are much better grinders out there. The Mazzer Mini has lost popularity in the last few years due to the fact that the Baratza Vario exists for a cool $450, and has been shown to best it in the cup. But, IMO, the Mini(the original doser'd mini anyway)is still a solid choice for an Espresso grinder, and before the Vario came out, the Mini was incredibly popular for the home barista. Just look though the early posts in the "Espresso Shrine" thread, you'll see plenty of Mini's and Rocky's, even though we don't suggest them that often anymore. That said, making even the small jump to a Super Jolly level grinder has been shown to be a real huge improvement in the cup.. Specifically..
-Compak K6 Pro... Around $800 -Mazzer Super Jolly.... Around $700 -Compak K8.. Around $1K -Mazzer Major...Around $1k(Even though its not listed, I think Chris Coffee has this still, and probably still around $1K.. I bought mine there) And there is even a Tital Conical in this price point... -Fiorenzato Doge Conico..Around $1k
The grinder makes the difference, and the difference in the cup with any of these guys compared to the Mazzer Mini, is a big one. Especially three Titans, the K8, Major and Doge Conico, which are in a league of their own.
Any of those grinders will.. -Be a nice match for a semi-commercial machine like the QM67, Alex Duetto, Spaziale Vivaldi etc etc -Pretty much wipe the floor with the Mazzer Mini -Allow the grinder part of the setup to become transparent, something that just sits there and does what you need it to do, rather than something you have to fight with, something you have to "make work" to get what you want out of it.
And Im not trying to say Chris Coffee is wrong to suggest the Maz Mini Electronic. For them to suggest a Titan level grinder for home use, is silly, because not everyone who calls them is a crazy hardcore enthusiast who will put such huge grinders on their counters. Most won't. And if they suggested Mazzer Majors or Compak K10s to everyone who bought a Duetto or Vivaldi or Vetrano, and they all bought them.. Id bet at least 75% of them would send the grinder back because there is no way they'd put something like that in their kitchen. Be aware that all the grinders I mentioned are big grinders, and will need to be run without a hopper to fit under a cabinet(the Superjolly may fit underneath with the mini hopper, idk). But, while some slight concessions need to be made to use full commercial grinders at home, the payoff is worth it to some of us. Its NOT worth it to everyone.
IF you are not one of those who is cool with such a grinder on your counter, don't fret over the Maz Mini. As I said up above, it IS a good grinder, and Chris'Coffee suggesting it to you as a starting point for a grinder to pair with the machines you're considering, is SPOT ON advice. And at the end of the day, a Mazzer Mini electronic "B" and a QM67 is a setup worth envying, one that is capable of wonderful coffee, and one I am sure you would be pleased with.
Follow Your Bliss
Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 418 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 5:41pm Subject: Re: Considerations for a machine. (specific to 15A users especially)
Jmanespresso Said:
The QM67 is a solid choice no doubt. I owned two Quickmill HXs, and despite my preference for a dual boiler, I still loved both machines. If the QM67 was rotary, I would have bought it. Ive been very pleased with Quickmill and Im sure the QM67 keeps the tradition going.
The suggestion to get a better grinder to go with one of these machines is right on. A prosumer level machine should have a commercial level grinder next to it, no doubt in my mind.
I dont think the Mazzer Mini Electronic is a bad grinder, by any means.. I just think that for nearly $1K, there are much better grinders out there. The Mazzer Mini has lost popularity in the last few years due to the fact that the Baratza Vario exists for a cool $450, and has been shown to best it in the cup. But, IMO, the Mini(the original doser'd mini anyway)is still a solid choice for an Espresso grinder, and before the Vario came out, the Mini was incredibly popular for the home barista. Just look though the early posts in the "Espresso Shrine" thread, you'll see plenty of Mini's and Rocky's, even though we don't suggest them that often anymore. That said, making even the small jump to a Super Jolly level grinder has been shown to be a real huge improvement in the cup.. Specifically..
-Compak K6 Pro... Around $800 -Mazzer Super Jolly.... Around $700 -Compak K8.. Around $1K -Mazzer Major...Around $1k(Even though its not listed, I think Chris Coffee has this still, and probably still around $1K.. I bought mine there) And there is even a Tital Conical in this price point... -Fiorenzato Doge Conico..Around $1k
The grinder makes the difference, and the difference in the cup with any of these guys compared to the Mazzer Mini, is a big one. Especially three Titans, the K8, Major and Doge Conico, which are in a league of their own.
Any of those grinders will.. -Be a nice match for a semi-commercial machine like the QM67, Alex Duetto, Spaziale Vivaldi etc etc -Pretty much wipe the floor with the Mazzer Mini -Allow the grinder part of the setup to become transparent, something that just sits there and does what you need it to do, rather than something you have to fight with, something you have to "make work" to get what you want out of it.
And Im not trying to say Chris Coffee is wrong to suggest the Maz Mini Electronic. For them to suggest a Titan level grinder for home use, is silly, because not everyone who calls them is a crazy hardcore enthusiast who will put such huge grinders on their counters. Most won't. And if they suggested Mazzer Majors or Compak K10s to everyone who bought a Duetto or Vivaldi or Vetrano, and they all bought them.. Id bet at least 75% of them would send the grinder back because there is no way they'd put something like that in their kitchen. Be aware that all the grinders I mentioned are big grinders, and will need to be run without a hopper to fit under a cabinet(the Superjolly may fit underneath with the mini hopper, idk). But, while some slight concessions need to be made to use full commercial grinders at home, the payoff is worth it to some of us. Its NOT worth it to everyone.
IF you are not one of those who is cool with such a grinder on your counter, don't fret over the Maz Mini. As I said up above, it IS a good grinder, and Chris'Coffee suggesting it to you as a starting point for a grinder to pair with the machines you're considering, is SPOT ON advice. And at the end of the day, a Mazzer Mini electronic "B" and a QM67 is a setup worth envying, one that is capable of wonderful coffee, and one I am sure you would be pleased with.
In the world or on this forum? HB or CG? I believe the point is the Vario at half the price edges out in taste the mini by people who can tell the difference and that for around the $1k range a lot of grinders are available that easily outperform the mini but have a size to match a vw beetle on the counter.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 418 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Feb 27, 2013, 6:15pm Subject: Re: Considerations for a machine. (specific to 15A users especially)
germantownrob Said:
In the world or on this forum? HB or CG? I believe the point is the Vario at half the price edges out in taste the mini by people who can tell the difference and that for around the $1k range a lot of grinders are available that easily outperform the mini but have a size to match a vw beetle on the counter.
As I've long said, the most significant improvement I ever made in terms of equipment was switching from a Mazzer Mini to the Cimbali MaxHybrid. I certainly saw no decline in performance when I opted for the Baratza Vario . . .
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