calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,671 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:26am Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
AlexKilpatrick Said:
You posted a great summary of the key points and then you say it is not even debatable? I think it is very debatable, which is what makes this so interesting.
Is a GS/3 6X better than the BDB (it costs about 6x as much)? With technology changing, do you want the same machine over 20 years? What is the value of the fact that the italian makers originated the technology? Does it mean they understand it better? Or is it stagnant tech that hasn't changes in 20 years? What is the value of the design compared to value of functionality? What is the risk/reward ratio for taking a chance on the BDB? Has anyone done a blind taste test between the BDB and higher-end machines?
The Gs3 is at least 10 times the quality of the BDB an will be a quality machine long after the BDB is in a land fill
I ask you to see my post above as to the "value of HIGH TECH" and how it relates to the BDB. just because we still have doubts about the BDB, your ox is not being gored. Enjoy your machine and it's quality shots. :-)
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
I would guess because the owner does not want it any more. There is no way to know the motive of the seller, even if you ask you likely not get a straight answer.
Buyer beware and all that as you do not have a warranty with a used machine.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Smclaughlin Senior Member Joined: 31 Jan 2013 Posts: 21 Location: United states tampa Fl Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Nuova simonelli... Roaster: Naviera coffee mills tampa...
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:16pm Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
Excuse me quality purposes you dont compare ferrari with chevy have yall compared internals bit by bit because no matter how many stainless steel boilers are made they can never compare to the proven and superior thermal conductivity of per COPper boilers sorry materials introduced by the italians will win all the time and thes other american companies seem to not get it. Its sad and pitiful....
Iluvdabean Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,057 Location: California Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia... Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro... Drip: Capresso MT 500/Pour Over Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 1:47pm Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
AlexKilpatrick Said:
You posted a great summary of the key points and then you say it is not even debatable? I think it is very debatable, which is what makes this so interesting.
Is a GS/3 6X better than the BDB (it costs about 6x as much)? With technology changing, do you want the same machine over 20 years?
These are espresso machines that have a track record,are built well and made to be repaired when needed and will always with care provide years of service and pull the exact same shot on year one and year twenty. Can BDB make this claim...NO!
What is the value of the fact that the italian makers originated the technology? Does it mean they understand it better? Or is it stagnant tech that hasn't changes in 20 years?
When you consider the history of espresso and espresso machines being centered in Italy it does mean something. When you look at these companies that have been in the business for a century caring for the craft with hand made machines and relentless attention to detail yes it does matter. The fact that these same companies are still pressing on speaks volumes to their commitment.
What is the value of the design compared to value of functionality? Design has to do with intentional well thought out plans whereas function has to do with the actual way it works after design. The value of design is that it can exist in a creative window of imagination where the goal of quality,purpose,and simplicity can be realized then brought into reality. Whereas if you start from functionality you can compromise the passion and vision. Simplicity has aways been the best design. When you add electronic technology and gadgets to surpass mechanical systems you leave them prone to more problems not less
What is the risk/reward ratio for taking a chance on the BDB? I would say the odds are in your favor since you are getting good coffee and it will keep the passion for good coffee alive. If you eventually find its not a machine that you like you can easily change directioin and right off the relatively small investment as lesson learned. I seriously doubt anyone buying a BDB sees in it a lifetime machine. It clearly has deviated from mainstream design and this rises the giant spectre we must all ask ourselves,"Is the vision of an Australian company known for small appliances better than the hundred years of the Italians who caught the vision, maintained the vision and nurtured that vision??????"
Has anyone done a blind taste test between the BDB and higher-end machines? I dont know but its a mute point because extrapolate that out ten years and see if the BDB is even working or being made
AlexKilpatrick Senior Member Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 117 Location: Austin
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Bairtiza Vario
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 2:29pm Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
I would say the odds are in your favor since you are getting good coffee and it will keep the passion for good coffee alive. If you eventually find its not a machine that you like you can easily change directioin and right off the relatively small investment as lesson learned. I seriously doubt anyone buying a BDB sees in it a lifetime machine. It clearly has deviated from mainstream design and this rises the giant spectre we must all ask ourselves,"Is the vision of an Australian company known for small appliances better than the hundred years of the Italians who caught the vision, maintained the vision and nurtured that vision??????"
I actually agree with you on this point. It isn't a "lifetime" machine. But spending $1000 on it, I wouldn't expect it to be a lifetime machine. And I can't imagine anyone new to espresso (like the OP in this thread) knowing enough to make a lifetime commitment to espresso. If I get two years out of it, I will be happy (I suspect it will last a lot longer). I'm hoping in two years there might be some other cool tech in the BDB v II - maybe temperature profiles?
Simplicity has aways been the best design. When you add electronic technology and gadgets to surpass mechanical systems you leave them prone to more problems not less
I would warrant a PID and microcontroller are much simpler and less prone to problems than any mechanical system because there are no moving parts.
All of this comes down to what is important to you. Is a $200,000 Ferrari 10 X better than a $20,000 Kia? If you are looking for something to get you to work, then it certainly isn't. If you are looking for something to go 0-60 in 3 seconds, then it is. If you want that Ferrari style, then the price doesn't matter.
If you are looking for an espresso machine that has a track record of lasting 20 years, then you shouldn't consider the BDB. If you are looking for something that has the cachet of the espresso equivalent of a Ferrari than you need to get a GS/3. If you really like the Italian styling, then get the Quick Mill. But if you are looking for something that is inexpensive, and has the capabilities to produce great shots, then you should consider the BDB. I don't think there is any machine that gives you the same features and value for the dollar. And you would absolutely be better of spending $1100 on a BDB and $500 on a grinder than spending $1900 on a Quick Mill and buying some cheap grinder.
AlexKilpatrick Senior Member Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 117 Location: Austin
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Bairtiza Vario
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 3:29pm Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
I love the Seattle Coffee gals, but they don't do blind tests. Their tests are fairly useless for any scientific taste comparisons (which the freely admit) It is a good way to compare features, though.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,671 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013, 4:13pm Subject: Re: Quick Mill Vetrano vs. Breville Dual Boiler
Who cares? Right now it works fairly well, the doubters will say fairly freely but how long will it do so? For sure not as long as a more "traditional" or most Italian machines will.
From what I have observed, the most vocal proponents of the BDB seem to be more fans of the machine and defend it along those lines rather having a dispassionate point of view and discuss the merits of both the pro and con points.
No one is calling anyone names or are talking bad about anyone's mother, relax. If you choose to spend your money this way' that's fine, enjoy your choice and may you only pull god shots. There are however, many design compromised choices made in it and merely pointing them out should not be taken as a threat. Just saying... aYMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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