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BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > BDB Double Shot...  
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nayabryan
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NYC
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 6:09am
Subject: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

1st post here from a Coffee Geek Newbie here.

Just received this bad boy as a gift from my wife. She figured it would be cheaper in the long run to give me a machine rather than me going to starbucks twice a day.

Anyhow, 99% of the time, i drink Americanos only so the quality of the shot is ever more important than for those who prefer other drinks with milk.

I have absolutely no problem reaching 9 bar when i am using single shot single wall. But it only goes up to 5-6 on OPV when i am using the double shot single wall.

I am also using Breville smart grinder and the setting is the same whether i pull 1 or 2 shots. The amount of coffee is set at dead center and the dial is set all the way right to FINE.

Please offer me your expert advices on what I'm doing wrong.
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tinytot2
Senior Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2012
Posts: 113
Location: Wisconsin
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: NS Oscar
Grinder: Vario W
Drip: Breville YouBrew
Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 6:42am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

Do you have the old style Smart Grinder?  Maybe you need the shim kit for a finer grind?
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nayabryan
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NYC
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 7:23am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

tinytot2 Said:

Do you have the old style Smart Grinder?  Maybe you need the shim kit for a finer grind?

Posted February 15, 2013 link

The grinder was manufactured in 2012.

I read somewhere that they started putting the shim kit in from sometime in 2012.
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tinytot2
Senior Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2012
Posts: 113
Location: Wisconsin
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: NS Oscar
Grinder: Vario W
Drip: Breville YouBrew
Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 7:29am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

I'm really a super novice here, but are you weighing the dose?  

I thought I read that the Breville baskets are slightly tapered so maybe that is affecting the tamp.
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dyqik
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Oct 2011
Posts: 383
Location: Cambridge, MA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 PM
Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso Preciso...
Vac Pot: Cona D
Drip: Bona-Vita, CCD, Aeropress.
Roaster: Gene Cafe, Modded Poppers
Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 8:17am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

I am also using Breville smart grinder and the setting is the same whether i pull 1 or 2 shots. The amount of coffee is set at dead center and the dial is set all the way right to FINE.

It seems from your description that you're using the same amount (dose) of coffee from the grinder in either the single or double basket.  I guess that you have the amount of coffee set on the grinder so that it overflows the single basket, but not the double basket.  You need to increase the amount of coffee until you get a decent sized dose in the double basket - you should be using twice as much coffee for a double shot as for a single shot.  This should be at least 14g of coffee, and probably more like 18g if the grinder doesn't quite go fine enough.  If this isn't correct, how are you dosing the baskets?

A double shot with double the amount of coffee should need a slightly coarser grind than a single to get the right pull time.
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nayabryan
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NYC
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 8:18am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

dyqik Said:

It seems from your description that you're using the same amount (dose) of coffee from the grinder in either the single or double basket.  I guess that you have the amount of coffee set on the grinder so that it overflows the single basket, but not the double basket.  You need to increase the amount of coffee until you get a decent sized dose in the double basket - you should be using twice as much coffee for a double shot as for a single shot.  This should be at least 14g of coffee, and probably more like 18g if the grinder doesn't quite go fine enough.  If this isn't correct, how are you dosing the baskets?

A double shot with double the amount of coffee should need a slightly coarser grind than a single to get the right pull time.

Posted February 15, 2013 link

I am putting the double the amount.. What i meant is i leave the settings unchanged but i do change the number of shots between 1 & 2 depending on the basket that i am using.

Sorry for the confusion.
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dyqik
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Oct 2011
Posts: 383
Location: Cambridge, MA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera BZ07 PM
Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso Preciso...
Vac Pot: Cona D
Drip: Bona-Vita, CCD, Aeropress.
Roaster: Gene Cafe, Modded Poppers
Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 8:56am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

In that case it's almost certainly a tamping/distribution issue, maybe combined with a dosing issue - have a look for the Weiss Distribution Technique on the forum, and consider weighing exactly how much coffee you are using in each basket - the grinder might not produce exactly double the amount when you change the setting.  Dosing really has to be done by weight with a 0.1g precision scale to get consistent results - even 0.5g will produce a significant change in brew pressure and/or shot time.
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tinytot2
Senior Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2012
Posts: 113
Location: Wisconsin
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: NS Oscar
Grinder: Vario W
Drip: Breville YouBrew
Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:22am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

dyqik Said:

In that case it's almost certainly a tamping/distribution issue, maybe combined with a dosing issue - have a look for the Weiss Distribution Technique on the forum, and consider weighing exactly how much coffee you are using in each basket - the grinder might not produce exactly double the amount when you change the setting.  Dosing really has to be done by weight with a 0.1g precision scale to get consistent results - even 0.5g will produce a significant change in brew pressure and/or shot time.

Posted February 15, 2013 link

Agreed.  I have the same grinder and started using the WDT a few weeks ago with much better results.
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Jmanespresso
Senior Member
Jmanespresso
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 2,109
Location: Westchester NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto II
Grinder: Compak K10 - Vario
Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5
Drip: V60, Beehouse, CCD
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:50am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

When you switch from using the single basket to the double basket, you can't simply just add more coffee.

The grind setting, that is, how fine the particles are, needs to be adjusted.  In fact, so you know for the future, you will need to adjust your grind setting, EVERY TIME YOU CHANGE SOMETHING.  New coffee?  Gonna need dialing in.  New baskets?  Gonna need dialing in.  Changing your dose?(14grams, 15grams, etc etc), gonna need to dial that in.

the grind setting, along with the dose(how much coffee goes in the basket), determines how fast or slow the coffee will flow out of the basket.  So, as a for instance..  say, using the double basket, you load 16grams in the basket at whatever grind setting your set at currently.  Load the PF, hit brew, and nothing comes out for 10, 15 seconds.  A choker.  Ok, no problem.  You can grind coarser.  OR, you can use less coffee.  OR you can do both.  Now, it is suggested to only change ONE variable at a time, so you can see what made the change happen, but I just wanted to illustrate how grind fineness and dose affect the flowrate of a shot.  I hope this is more clear to you now.


As to your direct question..

1)I suggest always using the double shot basket.  in the past, single shot baskets were thrown into a drawer never to be seen again.  today, people are more willing to attempt to use them..  However, aside from two particular single shot baskets, MOST of them are pretty terrible to try and get an even extraction from, purely because of thier design.  So, for all intents and purposes, right now, stop using the single, use the double.  You'll have much more success.

2)Weigh how much coffee you are using in the basket.  You'll need a gram scale with .1gram resolution.  No worries, $20 should do you fine on Amazon.  Heres one for cheap.  Plenty of options to choose from.  This purchase right here will allow you to take your espresso up a bunch of notches.  Anyone who is serious about making great coffee has at least one gram scale, and likely two or three depending on the brewing their doing.  Fact is, its the ONLY way to be consistent.  Dosing by volume can vary as much as ten grams from coffee to coffee(and when we're talking about brewed coffee, like a pourover or chemex, with larger amounts of coffee at a time, variances can be as much as 40grams dosing by volume!)

3)Start with 16grams, and work from there.  IF you can get 18grams into the double basket without the coffee bed hitting the dispersion screen when you lock the portafilter in, do it.  Most blends today favor higher doses, you wont find many coffees which work their best at 14grams.

4)Set the grind setting so that, with 16grams in the basket, it takes 30seconds to get about 1.5oz.  Thats a slightly tighter shot than the standard "2oz in 25seconds" rule, but I think you'll have better luck with that as your starting point.  If the coffee comes out too fast, grind finer.  If it comes out too slow, grind coarser.  Dont use more or less coffee, keep it at 16grams, just adjust the grind.

5)When it comes to distribution and tamping..  For distribution, use the WDT(Basically, stir the ground coffee in the basket with a toothpick, in a spiraling or "orbital" pattern.  Spend no more then 10seconds doing this), it pretty much guarantees a textbook shot assuming everything else is in line.  And for tamping..  Keep it simple.  Straight down, once.  Thats it.  No taping, twirling, polishing..  Straight down, straight up.  As for the pressure, its not important.  What IS important is that you tamp the same pressure each time.  Whether thats 15pounds or 50 pounds, keep it consistent.

6)MAke sure you're using fresh coffee.  Roasted no less than a week ago.  If the bag doesn't have a roasted-on date stamped on it, its stale, and worthless, and wont work.  If its from starbucks, its wont work.  Grocery store?  Dunkin Donuts?  Wont work.  You need freshly roasted coffee from an Artisan roaster.  Pretty much all of us here order online, weekly/biweekly.  Click Here for a blend which is extremely popular, very easy to get great shots with, and is quite cheap.  Ordering online, if you're not used to doing it for coffee, sounds like a hassle.  But I can assure you, its not, and its the only way to get coffee of the highest quality.  Artisan roasters will roast your coffee upon recieving your order, and ship it out that day.  A good portion of them use USPS for shipping, so even if they're on the other side of the country, it'll be 3 days until you have the coffee.  There is more roasters available to you online than I care to list right now..  Suffice to say, I buy from a different roaster every week, rotating my favorites in as I desire, and after four years, I haven't been bored with what Im drinking ONCE.

That should get you going!

 
Follow Your Bliss

Coffee makes your constantly overcome your prejudices and re-evaluate your own "received wisdoms" when it comes to judging cup flavors. -Tom Owen, SweetMarias
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nayabryan
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 4
Location: NYC
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:55am
Subject: Re: BDB Double Shot Single Wall Question
 

Jmanespresso Said:

When you switch from using the single basket to the double basket, you can't simply just add more coffee.

The grind setting, that is, how fine the particles are, needs to be adjusted.  In fact, so you know for the future, you will need to adjust your grind setting, EVERY TIME YOU CHANGE SOMETHING.  New coffee?  Gonna need dialing in.  New baskets?  Gonna need dialing in.  Changing your dose?(14grams, 15grams, etc etc), gonna need to dial that in.

the grind setting, along with the dose(how much coffee goes in the basket), determines how fast or slow the coffee will flow out of the basket.  So, as a for instance..  say, using the double basket, you load 16grams in the basket at whatever grind setting your set at currently.  Load the PF, hit brew, and nothing comes out for 10, 15 seconds.  A choker.  Ok, no problem.  You can grind coarser.  OR, you can use less coffee.  OR you can do both.  Now, it is suggested to only change ONE variable at a time, so you can see what made the change happen, but I just wanted to illustrate how grind fineness and dose affect the flowrate of a shot.  I hope this is more clear to you now.


As to your direct question..

1)I suggest always using the double shot basket.  in the past, single shot baskets were thrown into a drawer never to be seen again.  today, people are more willing to attempt to use them..  However, aside from two particular single shot baskets, MOST of them are pretty terrible to try and get an even extraction from, purely because of thier design.  So, for all intents and purposes, right now, stop using the single, use the double.  You'll have much more success.

2)Weigh how much coffee you are using in the basket.  You'll need a gram scale with .1gram resolution.  No worries, $20 should do you fine on Amazon.  Heres one for cheap.  Plenty of options to choose from.  This purchase right here will allow you to take your espresso up a bunch of notches.  Anyone who is serious about making great coffee has at least one gram scale, and likely two or three depending on the brewing their doing.  Fact is, its the ONLY way to be consistent.  Dosing by volume can vary as much as ten grams from coffee to coffee(and when we're talking about brewed coffee, like a pourover or chemex, with larger amounts of coffee at a time, variances can be as much as 40grams dosing by volume!)

3)Start with 16grams, and work from there.  IF you can get 18grams into the double basket without the coffee bed hitting the dispersion screen when you lock the portafilter in, do it.  Most blends today favor higher doses, you wont find many coffees which work their best at 14grams.

4)Set the grind setting so that, with 16grams in the basket, it takes 30seconds to get about 1.5oz.  Thats a slightly tighter shot than the standard "2oz in 25seconds" rule, but I think you'll have better luck with that as your starting point.  If the coffee comes out too fast, grind finer.  If it comes out too slow, grind coarser.  Dont use more or less coffee, keep it at 16grams, just adjust the grind.

5)When it comes to distribution and tamping..  For distribution, use the WDT(Basically, stir the ground coffee in the basket with a toothpick, in a spiraling or "orbital" pattern.  Spend no more then 10seconds doing this), it pretty much guarantees a textbook shot assuming everything else is in line.  And for tamping..  Keep it simple.  Straight down, once.  Thats it.  No taping, twirling, polishing..  Straight down, straight up.  As for the pressure, its not important.  What IS important is that you tamp the same pressure each time.  Whether thats 15pounds or 50 pounds, keep it consistent.

6)MAke sure you're using fresh coffee.  Roasted no less than a week ago.  If the bag doesn't have a roasted-on date stamped on it, its stale, and worthless, and wont work.  If its from starbucks, its wont work.  Grocery store?  Dunkin Donuts?  Wont work.  You need freshly roasted coffee from an Artisan roaster.  Pretty much all of us here order online, weekly/biweekly.  Click Here for a blend which is extremely popular, very easy to get great shots with, and is quite cheap.  Ordering online, if you're not used to doing it for coffee, sounds like a hassle.  But I can assure you, its not, and its the only way to get coffee of the highest quality.  Artisan roasters will roast your coffee upon recieving your order, and ship it out that day.  A good portion of them use USPS for shipping, so even if they're on the other side of the country, it'll be 3 days until you have the coffee.  There is more roasters available to you online than I care to list right now..  Suffice to say, I buy from a different roaster every week, rotating my favorites in as I desire, and after four years, I haven't been bored with what Im drinking ONCE.

That should get you going!

Posted February 15, 2013 link

WOW.

Talk about wealth of information.

seems like weighing the dosage definitely is the way to go.

Just placed an order for the scale.

Thank you and will keep you guys posted on how it turns out.

Thanks once again!
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