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martisan
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Feb 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: starbucks barista
Grinder: super jolly
Drip: melitta
Roaster: good local shop
Posted Wed Feb 6, 2013, 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

Yes, the descale was after things got bad.  I tasted the cooled water and it wasn't that great- I will flush it out some more.  The shot time is very approximately 35 or 40 sec for 2 shots side by side, around the same as I am used to.   I cleaned the screen, but not the" machine group" except as in a descale.  I am using a pressurized pf.  I know that is not considered correct, but last year  I removed the spring and valve, and my results were clearly less good.  I didn't experiment at that time, I admitted defeat and reinstalled them.  Now I am trying harder.  I have received new burrs for the grinder but probably do not need to introduce yet another variable right now, unless you think I should.  Is my  espresso machine capable of doing fairly well if it is in good working order and I get my skills going, or is it just a toy, sorely in need of replacement?  What is a good cleaner for the pf?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,881
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Feb 6, 2013, 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

Some cleaners are Joe Glo, Cafiza, Cleancaf, and similar.  They are very effective at desolving coffee residue.  On machines with a 3 way, you can back flush as opposed to just soaking and cleaning parts.  You may be amazed what comes out of the PF and pressurzed system on yours.  You should be able to get basically hot water to taste the same as if you boiled it on the stove, or microwave once everything is clean.  Descale is for mineral, not a cleaner at all.

For several years prior to my Gaggia and reading CG I used a Delonghi, Starbucks or Peets and made better than I could buy.  For the record, that was a low bar.  I realize that you are just trying to get back to where you were but pressurized forces bubbles and "fake crema."  No offense meant, but if you get your machine working, then unpressurized is the way to go.  The problem is that you have to have a finely stepped grinder to keep in the desirable grind range.  You may be too fine and then too coarse.  The SJ should be capable if in good repair, alignment, and clean.  Pressurized gets around this, but the grind, extraction, and flavor suffer.  I will leave that for now.  I am not sure why you do not get about 45 - 60 ml in 25 seconds, the standard double.  That may not be your concern now.  I believe that you want to get back to what you had.  I would like you to get there and then start to improve, non-pressurized and proper grind and extraction.

You may know your machine well, but here is a useful site and parts diagram.  It may help if you later consider a PID.

http://www.partsguru.com/user/Barista%2005.01.pdf

I am not sure that you can really get a good non-pressurezed PF out of a pressurized on this machine.  I am not an expert on your machine, but there is a lot of info available with a search of Barista Portafilter. You could need a new style PF and basket.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/questions/30018  Barista PF

Cleaning the PF, directly from Saeco

Click Here (www.partsguru.com)

If your machine is in good working order I believe that it is a reasonable place to start.  Not highly recommended if one were to ask about buying new today, but you already have it.  If it makes appropriate pressure at appropriate temperature, then comes down to beans, grinder, and you.  A great read and place that many of us at CG started is here in how to #12, Easy Guide to espresso at home.  I read most of the whole site and journey before I started CG, after the Delonghi.  Again, no offense meant, I do not know your experience level, and this a basis to talk.

http://www.espressomyespresso.com/

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 2,747
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, 2 Macap M4s, OE...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:09pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

You're getting great help in this thread already from Fred (D4F), but I wanted to mention a couple of other things.

First off, you really should read the last article he mentioned (easy guide to better espresso at home) on www.espressomyespresso.com You'll find it about half way down the right hand column, under "how to".  Not only have many of us read it when we were getting started, I still read every 6 months or so, just to "recalibrate myself".  It's probably the one guide I've referred the most people to since I got active on this forum.  This guide will also help you dial in your SJ grinder.

regarding pressurized portafilters...not only do they make "fake crema", they actually make "fake espresso".  Yeah, that's right, it's not even considered espresso by many. The reason is that in order to make use of the "pressurized" basket, you have to use crappy stale store bought pre-ground coffee, or grind very coarse (very as compared to what you need for real espresso) just to get the water through the grounds. Thus, the coffee is not extracted properly, like it would be if you actually ran 8-9 bar pressure through finely ground beans.   What you get from those things is more similar to what you get from a moka pot, than it is to espresso.

So, as fred mentioned, as soon as you get your machine functioning properly (which I'm really not so sure it isn't, honestly) you should ditch the pressurized inserts and sue non-pressurized baskets, your Mazzer SJ, and fresh good quality coffee beans.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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martisan
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Feb 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: starbucks barista
Grinder: super jolly
Drip: melitta
Roaster: good local shop
Posted Thu Feb 7, 2013, 6:08am
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

I have to go to work now so time is short.   I just wanted to apologize to anyone who saw my inappropriate first response, when I felt hurt and angry. A cooler head than  me (D4F)  suggested an edit, which was an excellent idea.   I am happy to leave  that in the past.   Thank you all for your help.  PS  I understand that pressurized pf s are for amateurs, so far that's me.  I hope to progress....
                      Martin
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,881
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Thu Feb 7, 2013, 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

Martin, any progress?  I found a thread on depressurizing the PF.  You may have already gone through this, but perhaps not, as it could be irreversible, I can't tell.  Problem in the machines that I know is that the pressurized baskets are double bottomed and part of the system, so you you may need a basket.  Sounds like the Saeco/Starbuck machine is capable.

Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

Did you get to clean water from the machine?

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,881
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Thu Feb 7, 2013, 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

If you have not seen this thread, it looks like a great resource for clean out and repair.

Click Here (www.ifixit.com)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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martisan
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Feb 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: starbucks barista
Grinder: super jolly
Drip: melitta
Roaster: good local shop
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2013, 9:04pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

I read "the easy guide...."  and some other things, all full of things I didn't know.  I got a digital thermometer and a cup and checked the brew temp.  It seemed variable-  on three tries I got between 168 and 185 I think.  I have to experiment more to see if I can at least figure out how to get the higher temp, but I guess its lower than it should be.  I think the shower screen might be causing me the biggest problem.  I cleaned it but I think most water comes out of a 1/2 inch circle in the middle and probably is channeling straight  through.  The puck has a noticeable depression in the top center.  Also I have depressurized the pf, but then saw the screen issue which I hope to fix now.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,881
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Fri Feb 8, 2013, 9:56pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

Wow, great progress.  I believe that the temperature will be close to normal brew temperature at the puck.  That variability is probably normal for the method, only an approximation. Using that temperature method, you can get an idea how to raise the temperature with the steam switch.  Perhaps 3 - 4 seconds of on steam switch, then off and rest 3 - 4 seconds, and then brew.  You will find a set of numbers that will help raise and stabilize the brew temperature.  Then it is about taste to adjust the final temperature.

If is not fun to find and see problems, but they are not correctable until you find them.

Did you get back to clean natural tasting water?

Keep posting, progress or questions.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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martisan
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Feb 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: starbucks barista
Grinder: super jolly
Drip: melitta
Roaster: good local shop
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2013, 2:22pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

Success at last.  The water coming out of the screen still looks similar to how it was before, mainly in the center.  I did clean many partly plugged holes, so it has to be better.  Now with the pressurized pf  stuff fully removed, I adjusted my grind to be just a little coarser than before, and  tamped it fairly firmly.  In the past tamping would completely choke it.   I got  2 shots in about 25 seconds, nice crema, and good flavor. Now that I have a tiny bit of knowledge I will continue fine-tuning things to try to make it better.  That includes getting it clean, so the water tastes good, playing with the temp,  and now I will put in the new burrs in my SJ.  Did I understand that my grinder would be hypersensitive to adjusting, that 2 or 3 clicks would go from too fine to too coarse?  I still cannot understand what changed in one day that allowed me to brew non-toxic poison, but that doesn't matter. (brew- probably the wrong term)
Thanks for the help. I am sure I will need more.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,881
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Sat Feb 9, 2013, 2:41pm
Subject: Re: Starbucks barista brew temp.
 

Great to hear that you are not having espresso withdrawal. Sweet success and sweet crema.

martisan Said:

 The water coming out of the screen still looks similar to how it was before, mainly in the center.

Posted February 9, 2013 link

Once more the pictures

http://www.partsguru.com/user/Barista%2005.01.pdf

and then look at this one

Click Here (www.partsguru.com)

The Classic is still a simple machine, but you can see part 22 the "rose holder" or more commonly, the dispersion plate, above the dispersion screen.  The Barista has the central valve and then the screen, thus the more central flow.

Also note how the bottom boiler half is deeply dished with the tube upward in the center.  You can get scale particles trapped in the bottom if they do not all dissolve.  If you have a future problem after descale, you may have to disassemble the boiler and clean it out.

Of course there is always the PID :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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