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Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Trying to Decide...  
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 615
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Thu Jan 10, 2013, 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Look at the Expobar Brewtus line. 2 insulated copper 1.8L boilers, PID, E-61, dual manometers, 75lbs. The machine has given me no issues so far. I switched out the steam tip for a rocket 2 hole tip just for preference. The warm up is quick and the vibration pump is quieter than my grinder.

When I ordered mine several months ago, I paid $1800, they through in a rattleware tamper, a bottomless PF, cleaning solutions, etc.

When I opened up the hood, you can see this machine is built like a tank, easy access to all the PID components in the occasion they need replacement (not that Ive had any issues at all), all of the tubing is copper, aside from the reservoir and back feed lines.

I considered the R58 and the Duetto II, couldnt see where the extra grand was going though. Unless you really need a rotary pump (available on the plumb-only expobar) or NSF rating, I dont think theyre worth the extra cash.

The Brewtus sell under different names in different countries, from what I have seen there is the Minore, and the leva. Give it a look.

 
Anthony C

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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 615
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Thu Jan 10, 2013, 9:45pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

CSME9 Said:

I have used both the QM67 and Brewtus 4VP, my observations are:

Brewing-Brewtus shots were richer with thicker crema, QM67 shots looked good, slight hint of sourness even after adjusting offset & trying hotter brew temps, shots lacked the depth of the Brewt.

Steaming-Brewtus has larger boiler , holds steam preassure at 1 bar from 1.3 bar, steam time 4oz 28 seconds, 8oz 45 seconds, one hole tip makes for easy micro foaming. QM 67 smaller boiler, 2 hole tip, steam time 4oz 25 seconds, 8 oz 55 seconds preassure drops below 1 bar from 1.4 bar, harder to work small amount of milk.

Gauges: Brewtus higher easier to see, QM67 harder to see behind the steam wand.

Shower screen/gasket groove: Brewtus collects more coffee residue faster.

Drip Tray: Brewtus Huge tray, top grill has to be removed before the tray can slide out-QM67 tray slides straight out.

Water Reservoir: Brewtus 2.5L and uses more water when running off the water tank since the aeretor & OPV vent about 2 oz of water back to the drip tray when brewing and 1-2 oz when doing a porta filter cleaning wiggle , you can vent it  back to the water reservoir and conserve water by adding 2 ft of silicone hose to the OPV, the cup warmer has to be removed to fill the water tank thru a small tank opening. QM67 has a 3L uses less water and vents the opv/aerator back to the water reservoir, no need to remove cup warmer since you simply lift a hinged door to fill.

Outer Shell: Brewtus uses a thicker outer shell, minimal front panel flex if you crank hard when inserting porta filter. QM67 more visible flex.

Fit & Finish: QM67 more refined, pump is quieter. Brewtus louder pump, rattles, feet are tall looks unbalanced, had QC issues with several machines

Posted January 10, 2013 link


I just wanted to point out that the opv venting issue is only present on the plumbable models of the brewtus, and took all of 5 minutes to correct with about 15 inches of 1/4inch tubing. It is essential to set up the vent this way to prevent a plumbed machine from filling (and overflowing) the reservoir with vented pressure. I guess they assume that if you are buying a plumbable model, you intend on plumbing it.
Also I can assue you that while the plumbable model stands tall, its footings are heavy rubber shoes on steel pegs, and are by no means unstable. I tried switching them out to gain more cabinet clearance to no avail. The brewtus drip tray will slide out if you tilt it upwards when you pull, but I only have to do this maybe once a week with heavy use.

What quality control issues have you heard of with this machine? I did a great deal of research before my purchase and encountered far less than the QM7, the R58, or the duetto. Albeit this may be due to a smaller user base, it still seems surprising.

 
Anthony C

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Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 1:17am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Ok still researching and now the izzo 3 has come in to the picture.looks like a solid machine.
Any thoughts ?
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 615
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:02am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Italo2275 Said:

Ok still researching and now the izzo 3 has come in to the picture.looks like a solid machine.
Any thoughts ?

Posted January 11, 2013 link

Pretty machine, here are some key differences that separate it from the brewtus anyway:
  • The PID controls the steam and brew boiler temp, can be converted to celsius, can switch from 15-20 amps. The Expobar is set up in such a way so that out of the box it only controls brew temp, in Fahrenheit. I prefer it this way to be honest, there isn't much reason to adjust the steam boiler temp unless the machine is struggling with steam pressure. The PID in the brewtus can be made to adjust all these other variables, but it is more complicated than its worth. The offset calculation is solid, and the temp in Fahrenheit gives you more control than in C (still moving 1 degree at a time). Both the steam and brew boilers can be easily turned off, on the brewtus, and the machine comes as 15A only (switching between heating elements, about 25minute warm up time).

  • The izzo comes with nicer knobs.

  • The izzo comes with an ergonomic PF (will probably fit any e-61 brew head, you can custom order these for around $70USD)

  • The Izzo comes with cup rails, I screwed two 120mm stainless steel drawer handles ($5USD each) for my expobar,

  • The Izzo comes with multiple steam tips, both the steam and hot water wand are "no-burn." The expobar comes with only one (though when I asked, they shipped mine with the rocket 4 pack for free) and only the steam are is "no-burn." Considering that you are not submerging the water arm in milk, it doesnt really matter.

  • The water tank access is easier on the Izzo, both machines come plumbable.

  • The Izzo is a rotary pump machine, this will make it quieter. Doesnt matter if you grinder isn't so quiet though.

  • The Izzo has much smaller boilers than the Expobars 2 1.8L, and the Expobar has 2 1250W heating elements as opposed to the 1200 and 800 in the Izzo.

Both machines cut power when the reservoir is low, and both share a lot of features. The internals of the brewtus are easy to access and its encouraging to me that the machine will last as long as Im willing to keep it clean. The Izzo shares these characteristics, but is close to twice the price. While I can understand the allure of the Italian made machines, I think the 9lbs of steel that make up any e-61 machines brew group should scream "function before form." The nicer knobs and PF can be bought cheaply, and will add a more custom touch to your machine.

Whichever machine you choose, if you go through Wholelattelove.com, I found that calling them and discussing my options with the purchase was extremely beneficial. Not only did I not pay the advertised price, I received a bottomless PF, steam tips, a rattleware tamper, and other accessories free. Where ever you order, just call, the sales teams behind these machines often can provide a great deal of insight. I was originally leaning towards the Izzo and the R58 myself, after consulting here, and doing my own research I just couldn't figure out where the additional grand was being sunk, and still it isn't clear to me that they would be worth the extra cash.

This Page contains some photos of my brewtus, my review of it, the cup rails I added, the steam tips I received, and photos of the back feed line I added to my plumbable machine since I planned on using it as a reservoir model for now (what you see in that photo are the only non-metal tubing in the whole machine).

 
Anthony C

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Gimme! Piccolo Mondo Espresso Blend
http://coffeeandneuroscience.wordpress.com/
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benpiff
Senior Member
benpiff
Joined: 5 Feb 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Portland, OR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: RocketR58,GrimacMini,Vetrano
Grinder: K10Fresh,LSM FK
Vac Pot: Vario,Pharos
Drip: Livia 90, NS Elli
Roaster: Sonofresco ADR
Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:23am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

I had a very positive experience with Whole Latte Love, but personally recommend you check out Clive Coffee. They do such thorough testing, have an exceptional team of enthusiasts, and have all these models except the Brewtus. I believe they offer the most value and strongest customer protection (30 day satisfaction guarantee, 2 year extended warranty, free barista starter kit, the QM67 includes a $75 gift certificate). If only we could meet up at their Portland showroom for a shootout, that would be a blast!

 
www.oldparkedcars.com
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:01am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

benpiff Said:

I had a very positive experience with Whole Latte Love, but personally recommend you check out Clive Coffee. They do such thorough testing, have an exceptional team of enthusiasts, and have all these models except the Brewtus. I believe they offer the most value and strongest customer protection (30 day satisfaction guarantee, 2 year extended warranty, free barista starter kit, the QM67 includes a $75 gift certificate). If only we could meet up at their Portland showroom for a shootout, that would be a blast!

Posted January 11, 2013 link

I concur!! There is a reason they dont sell the Brewtus...
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Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Wow thanks for the vry indepth details, I do have to say I like the Izzo 3 but the only thing that is preventing me from buying it is that it a very big machine and will not fit my counter.
I do like the Expobar but I do not het they do not make a Tank version of the Rotary Pump? Does not make sense.
I am still so Undecided I will start my Pos and Cons list.
By the way thanks for the Suggestions but I do not think thiose guy Deliver to Canada, and I rather find someone that is close and can get help from.

Thanks for the info.
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Italo2275
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Jan 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Toronto
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Hi
May I ask why you do not like the Breutus?
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 4:29pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Italo2275 Said:

Hi
May I ask why you do not like the Breutus?

Posted January 11, 2013 link

You should give Clive coffee a call and ask their opinion..
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benpiff
Senior Member
benpiff
Joined: 5 Feb 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Portland, OR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: RocketR58,GrimacMini,Vetrano
Grinder: K10Fresh,LSM FK
Vac Pot: Vario,Pharos
Drip: Livia 90, NS Elli
Roaster: Sonofresco ADR
Posted Fri Jan 11, 2013, 6:22pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Whole Latte Love has exclusive distribution in the USA, that's the main reason Clive doesn't carry Expobar.

 
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