Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
Rancilio Silvia - How to
Step by step guide for easy brewing and steaming with the Rancilio Silvia
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Trying to Decide...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 17 of 41 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 857
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

That is what I am trying to figure out. Do they alllmake indentical espresso? Which machine will be the msot maintenance free? For me, it isnt cost. Its the end result, ease of use, quality in the cup, least likely to fail and easy to fix.

Posted January 29, 2013 link


You make the espresso.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,296
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

I think if you want to buy a BDB thats fine. I mean at that price it is tempting even to me,who when he comes here and thinks upgrade
thinks Quickmill Silvano ( Yes I like it ). Quickmill Silvano same price as BDB. Then I think back to the first time I came here six years ago because my Breville 800 ESXL
simply wouldn't make espresso. I was pointed to Gaggia Classic and they were right. Now Breville hase this BDB unit.Still from Australia and still made in China. I must admit the made in China issue doesn't
go over big with me. So I have to go with my gut and say well who started this whole espresso machine business.Names like Pier Teresio Arduino,
Luigi Bezzera,Desiderio Pavoni,Giovanni Achille Gaggia come to mind. You look at the Italians track record and it runs from them discovering espresso to where we are now.
All the names above are still viable and making machines,in Italy. Why havent they moved to China? ( I know the answer ) In fact if it wasn't for
Giovanni Achille Gaggia we wouldn't have the word Crema. When I look at the mass produced Breville I see a company that makes everything from
blenders to toasters. They hire some engineers to create a machine at a very reasonable price and meet certain requirements. This is done and done quite well
from all reports.
So to me the BDB isnt something to be afraid of because technology and its use can and has provided many great enhancements.
Cars now that have computers to monitor and change functions in an engine for example. To record a problem when brought to dealer.
To for example as in my 2008 Silverado Crew Cab..cut off a few cylinders on freeway when not needed,increase mileage yet in a moments notice
have full power if I pass. But does this translate to an espresso machine? Well thats what time will reveal. So when you consider it all
where espresso originated ( Italy), who has the proven track record ( Italy ) and who makes their own machines with an old world craftsman
attitude ( Italy) the scale tips in favor of Italy.
Now is that written in stone,no! Is the BDB a capable machine worth the money,yes. Will it hold up and establish itself
with the endearments lavished upon those from Italy? Well thats the million dollar question now isnt it.
But what do I know ( joking) Im still using my five year old Gaggia Classic.Sadly I just ordered a Silvia V1-V2 steam wand
that will be here this Friday. So go figure...yeah its time to get the Silvano.Now on this Classic in 5 years of everyday use
I have changed one grouphead gasket and one steam valve. I now its not a big fancy machine but I really love this little thing.
Its like a friend.
Click Here (www.youtube.com)
back to top
 View Profile Contact via ICQ Link to this post
cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 4:55pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Iluvdabean Said:

I think if you want to buy a BDB thats fine. I mean at that price it is tempting even to me,who when he comes here and thinks upgrade
thinks Quickmill Silvano ( Yes I like it ). Quickmill Silvano same price as BDB. Then I think back to the first time I came here six years ago because my Breville 800 ESXL
simply wouldn't make espresso. I was pointed to Gaggia Classic and they were right. Now Breville hase this BDB unit.Still from Australia and still made in China. I must admit the made in China issue doesn't
go over big with me. So I have to go with my gut and say well who started this whole espresso machine business.Names like Pier Teresio Arduino,
Luigi Bezzera,Desiderio Pavoni,Giovanni Achille Gaggia come to mind. You look at the Italians track record and it runs from them discovering espresso to where we are now.
All the names above are still viable and making machines,in Italy. Why havent they moved to China? ( I know the answer ) In fact if it wasn't for
Giovanni Achille Gaggia we wouldn't have the word Crema. When I look at the mass produced Breville I see a company that makes everything from
blenders to toasters. They hire some engineers to create a machine at a very reasonable price and meet certain requirements. This is done and done quite well
from all reports.
So to me the BDB isnt something to be afraid of because technology and its use can and has provided many great enhancements.
Cars now that have computers to monitor and change functions in an engine for example. To record a problem when brought to dealer.
To for example as in my 2008 Silverado Crew Cab..cut off a few cylinders on freeway when not needed,increase mileage yet in a moments notice
have full power if I pass. But does this translate to an espresso machine? Well thats what time will reveal. So when you consider it all
where espresso originated ( Italy), who has the proven track record ( Italy ) and who makes their own machines with an old world craftsman
attitude ( Italy) the scale tips in favor of Italy.
Now is that written in stone,no! Is the BDB a capable machine worth the money,yes. Will it hold up and establish itself
with the endearments lavished upon those from Italy? Well thats the million dollar question now isnt it.
But what do I know ( joking) Im still using my five year old Gaggia Classic.Sadly I just ordered a Silvia V1-V2 steam wand
that will be here this Friday. So go figure...yeah its time to get the Silvano.Now on this Classic in 5 years of everyday use
I have changed one grouphead gasket and one steam valve. I now its not a big fancy machine but I really love this little thing.
Its like a friend.
Click Here (www.youtube.com)

Posted January 29, 2013 link

I have to stick to my rule of avoiding chinese products unless absolutely necessary. This isnt one of those instances where it is necessary I buy a chinese made product. BDB out... Thanks for the reminder
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

I think retrofit is the right word - these look like HX machines that were home-upgraded to dual boiler PIDs by swapping and adding a few parts - but if you have a better one, I'm all ears.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

The word designed springs to mind....the Duetto was especially "designed" to work well. Your comments reveal a basic lack of understanding of these machines and the design principles that make them work. It's also quite unfair to the companies and designers who have bought these machines to market. If your going to criticize the machines at least be very specific (and correct) about the problems or compromises.

and example of you not being specific: You mention in later threads about PIDs burning out (but you have no idea why or what exactly was failing)....Gicar used a component only designed to operate reliably up to 70C (Hahn transformer on the PID board), This was sorted out long ago. I never had the problem, because I added extra ventilation to the prototype (Izzo tech design saw fit not to add this to production machines until much later, their choice). I have outboarded transformers for people with failed PIDs a $10 fix.

BubbaDude Said:

Personally, I'm less interested in user repairability than I am in low price, ease of use, and basic reliability. By analogy, the first car I had was a 10 year old 1966 VW Bug. In many ways it was a great car: I did everything from tune-ups to engine overhauls with a basic set of tools from Sears. But I tired of the machine, and several upgrades later landed in a Beemer. I don't do much repair work on this car, but I have a great mechanic who has all the know-how and all the tools. I've lost user repairability and gained functionality and basic reliability. The price wasn't too bad too, since I bought it used.

But this is a matter of personal taste, not the laws of physics.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

The analogy is flawed, it's a coffee machine not a car and the design principles of cars are very different. Repairability (especially ease of repair) is important for these machines, they are heavy and difficult to ship, often risking damage during the process. Far better for the end user to repair them or to be able to take them to a local repairer who will have no trouble with Generic components. I also think it's a bad thing for stuff to go to landfill, all because it's designed with a limited lifetime.

BubbaDude Said:

Did I mention that the BDB is half the price of these other jobs? It is, and at that rate you could buy two to ensure you always have a reserve supply of parts for adventures in appliance repair.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

<shakes head>In this thread your making bold statements about some machines you know very little about, including views on their design, function and performance, all without any real knowledge or experience. It's unfortunate that people just coming into the world of coffee might not realise this, and think you know what your talking about.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 535
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

DavecUK Said:

and example of you not being specific: You mention in later threads about PIDs burning out (but you have no idea why or what exactly was failing)....Gicar used a component only designed to operate reliably up to 70C (Hahn transformer on the PID board), This was sorted out long ago. I never had the problem, because I added extra ventilation to the prototype (Izzo tech design saw fit not to add this to production machines until much later, their choice). I have outboarded transformers for people with failed PIDs a $10 fix.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

I've never made a comment about PIDs burning out, Gicar or otherwise. This is and example of you pulling things out of your heinie.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,296
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 6:31pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

This is very helpful information for me also and appreciated.



DavecUK Said:

The word designed springs to mind....the Duetto was especially "designed" to work well. Your comments reveal a basic lack of understanding of these machines and the design principles that make them work. It's also quite unfair to the companies and designers who have bought these machines to market. If your going to criticize the machines at least be very specific (and correct) about the problems or compromises.

and example of you not being specific: You mention in later threads about PIDs burning out (but you have no idea why or what exactly was failing)....Gicar used a component only designed to operate reliably up to 70C (Hahn transformer on the PID board), This was sorted out long ago. I never had the problem, because I added extra ventilation to the prototype (Izzo tech design saw fit not to add this to production machines until much later, their choice). I have outboarded transformers for people with failed PIDs a $10 fix.



The analogy is flawed, it's a coffee machine not a car and the design principles of cars are very different. Repairability (especially ease of repair) is important for these machines, they are heavy and difficult to ship, often risking damage during the process. Far better for the end user to repair them or to be able to take them to a local repairer who will have no trouble with Generic components. I also think it's a bad thing for stuff to go to landfill, all because it's designed with a limited lifetime.



<shakes head>In this thread your making bold statements about some machines you know very little about, including views on their design, function and performance, all without any real knowledge or experience. It's unfortunate that people just coming into the world of coffee might not realise this, and think you know what your talking about.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

back to top
 View Profile Contact via ICQ Link to this post
cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Italo2275 Said:

So I have some updates.
I had the luck to play with the Brevil DB as I know someone who works for them. Homestly I was not impressed with it. We went though a bag of coffe trying to figure out why we could not get good crema, we even called the Tech support and they said it might be the Grinder, but I do not think so, becuase the finest setting was bottoming out the machine. Too much work and at then end of the day I do not like it. We tried differentg coffee and still same result.

So I still want to get one of the ones in my main post.
I spoke to the IDRINKCOFFE guys and they reccomended the r58 as they say it performs very well. They did mention that on the Alex duetto eventyally the PID burns out do to the locatio of where it is located.

I think any of the 3 machines I would be happy with, but now it is a matter on wich to make the investment in.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

This is the comment about the PID burnout issue but wasnt posted by BubbaDude
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 535
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

So I say this:

BubbaDude Said:

Did I mention that the BDB is half the price of these other jobs? It is, and at that rate you could buy two to ensure you always have a reserve supply of parts for adventures in appliance repair.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

And I get a response like this:

DavecUK Said:

<shakes head>In this thread your making bold statements about some machines you know very little about, including views on their design, function and performance, all without any real knowledge or experience. It's unfortunate that people just coming into the world of coffee might not realise this, and think you know what your talking about.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

Wow.

The prices are easily verified, and my experience with the BDB is all logged on the BDB owner's thread. The idea that I'm misleading people who are just coming into the coffee world who might otherwise be inclined to purchase a super-expensive vanity toy just amazes me. This is the Internet, and you should never take any one person's opinion as authoritative. Do your research and make up your own mind.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 7:47pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

So I say this:



And I get a response like this:



Wow.

The prices are easily verified, and my experience with the BDB is all logged on the BDB owner's thread. The idea that I'm misleading people who are just coming into the coffee world who might otherwise be inclined to purchase a super-expensive vanity toy just amazes me. This is the Internet, and you should never take any one person's opinion as authoritative. Do your research and make up your own mind.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

The prices are all about $1200 for a NEW BDB. We arent comparing USED machines. I would buy super expensive for reasons other than a vanity toy. We are trying to research but you do make some comments that are misleading such as what you paid for your machine. Until I called you on it, you failed to mention your machine was USED. Also, I am not buying something made in china. The chinese manufacturers have poisoned enough animals, children and the workers are working in inhumane conditions.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 535
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 7:57pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

cuznvin Said:

The prices are all about $1200 for a NEW BDB.

Posted January 29, 2013 link

And for a new R58, the price is $2,699.00. (Except they're out of stock, so you really can't buy one for any price.)  

Many people have bought new BDBs, on sale, for under $1000. Do the math.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
showing page 17 of 41 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Trying to Decide...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Commercial Equipment
Nuova Simonelli, La Marzocco, Rancilio. Nationwide installation. Instant financing options.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.534018993378)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+