airflite1 Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2013 Posts: 9 Location: Greenbush Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:36pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
CSME9 Said:
airflite1 Said:
"I do like the R58 best, but dont like the price".
I found that WLL had the best price on the R58 than others when i called them, i believe they also mentioned special packing was being used to prevent shipping damages. Also the doserless polished Rocket mazzer mini type A ships with the medium hopper not the smallest mini hopper, you have to ask them to swap it.
I'll, make it easier for you. All machines have problems, the QM7 (if it's the same one I tested for a retailer, 2x 0.75 litre boilers), is probably the best of the specific 3 machines in the title. It does need the PID settings heavily tweaked out of the box. The retailer I tested it for isn't going to stock it because of the price, but it worked fairly well.....However, if you can get a Duetto 3 for a reasonable price get one of those. It's still not without problems, but would be the best out there for a sensible price.
I have "extensively" reviewed/tested all the machines in the title of the thread, and others in the thread, with the exception of the Breville DB. I am just finishing off a test/review (2 months) of the Duetto 3 (Duetto MKIV in the UK). Finally, if there is a Duetto 2 at a better price than a Duetto 3, then buy the Duetto 2, unless the looks of the Duetto 3 vs the 2 are your primary concern. In certain operational aspects and ease of case refitting, the Duetto 2 is marginally better. In terms of espresso and steaming performance the 2 machines are identical.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 417 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 5:35pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
DavecUK Said:
I'll, make it easier for you. All machines have problems, the QM7 (if it's the same one I tested for a retailer, 2x 0.75 litre boilers), is probably the best of the specific 3 machines in the title. It does need the PID settings heavily tweaked out of the box. The retailer I tested it for isn't going to stock it because of the price, but it worked fairly well.....However, if you can get a Duetto 3 for a reasonable price get one of those. It's still not without problems, but would be the best out there for a sensible price.
I have "extensively" reviewed/tested all the machines in the title of the thread, and others in the thread, with the exception of the Breville DB. I am just finishing off a test/review (2 months) of the Duetto 3 (Duetto MKIV in the UK). Finally, if there is a Duetto 2 at a better price than a Duetto 3, then buy the Duetto 2, unless the looks of the Duetto 3 vs the 2 are your primary concern. In certain operational aspects and ease of case refitting, the Duetto 2 is marginally better. In terms of espresso and steaming performance the 2 machines are identical.
I can't really comment much further on the QM or Rocket as my tests/reviews of both machines were not published. Also remember there is a price premium to consider. The QM is a vibe pump machine, saves a lot of money (can be a big plus), but doesn't impact on espresso production and it was pretty quiet. I always wished they had bought out a smaller vibe pump version of the Duetto, much cheaper, smaller and would have worked just as well.
No I don't feel the vertical motor with a pump on it is as big a problem. Keep the motor seal well packed with silicon grease, check it once per year or if you get any pump noise. This only involves removal of the pump from the motor, a 5 minute job. In fact I have seen machines with the rotary pump mounted on top of the motor many may years before the Duetto. That said, it would be even more ideal if the pump was mounted under the motor, in fact I did ask for this after receiving the first prototype Duetto. I even did a cage design for them. It was unfortunately too difficult for them to do, or they lacked the will to do it.
After nearly 5 years with my Duetto, I have not had a problem, BUT, I do keep and eye on it, but that's true for all rotary pumps however they are mounted.
I'm at the moment awaiting with interest a new machine, from a new manufacturer to hit the market, I've seen the drawings and commented on some of the specs. If it can be made for a cheap enough price, I think it will add some interesting features making it different to the current formula for dual boiler machines.
Mind you, I'd be interested in why you believe the R58 is better than the QM7, if that is your perception and if you ignore the fact that the rocket has a rotary not a vibe pump. I look at these things in terms of specific espresso quality and easy of maintenance/reliability. I don't really get interested in aesthetics, because that's very specific to peoples tastes and the QM7 can come with a variety of cases, but same internals.
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 7:35pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Man, the Duetto II at Clive for $2250 is a heck of a lot cheaper than the R58. And I would have a hard time buying the QM67 with how close they are in price...This thread keeps suckin me back in!
But on a side note, this thread did make me jump back into the PID game with a Breville Dual Boiler. I just couldn't pass up the performance at the price point.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 417 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 7:50pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
DavecUK Said:
I can't really comment much further on the QM or Rocket as my tests/reviews of both machines were not published. Also remember there is a price premium to consider. The QM is a vibe pump machine, saves a lot of money (can be a big plus), but doesn't impact on espresso production and it was pretty quiet. I always wished they had bought out a smaller vibe pump version of the Duetto, much cheaper, smaller and would have worked just as well.
No I don't feel the vertical motor with a pump on it is as big a problem. Keep the motor seal well packed with silicon grease, check it once per year or if you get any pump noise. This only involves removal of the pump from the motor, a 5 minute job. In fact I have seen machines with the rotary pump mounted on top of the motor many may years before the Duetto. That said, it would be even more ideal if the pump was mounted under the motor, in fact I did ask for this after receiving the first prototype Duetto. I even did a cage design for them. It was unfortunately too difficult for them to do, or they lacked the will to do it.
After nearly 5 years with my Duetto, I have not had a problem, BUT, I do keep and eye on it, but that's true for all rotary pumps however they are mounted.
I'm at the moment awaiting with interest a new machine, from a new manufacturer to hit the market, I've seen the drawings and commented on some of the specs. If it can be made for a cheap enough price, I think it will add some interesting features making it different to the current formula for dual boiler machines.
Mind you, I'd be interested in why you believe the R58 is better than the QM7, if that is your perception and if you ignore the fact that the rocket has a rotary not a vibe pump. I look at these things in terms of specific espresso quality and easy of maintenance/reliability. I don't really get interested in aesthetics, because that's very specific to peoples tastes and the QM7 can come with a variety of cases, but same internals.
But you already did comment by saying tfe qm67 is the best of the 3. Without giving some good reason why, It is just an opinion. You say its the best but that bit needs major pid twee king. I like the rocket due to the design inside and out. The qm67 looks totally cramnef inside with wires running all over the place. The rocket also has dual preinfusion and a tilted brew boiler which according to rocket is done for a reason. The boilers also look better made.
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 8:37am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
QM 67 shot, shots always seemed a bit sour even after adjusting PID settings per tech support. Good fit & finish , pump was pretty quite for a vibe, steaming times for 4 oz 25 seconds, 8 oz 55 seconds, visible front panel flex when inserting porta filter. Hope this helps.
airflite1 Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2013 Posts: 9 Location: Greenbush Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 9:08am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
cuznvin Said:
But you already did comment by saying tfe qm67 is the best of the 3. Without giving some good reason why, It is just an opinion. You say its the best but that bit needs major pid twee king. I like the rocket due to the design inside and out. The qm67 looks totally cramnef inside with wires running all over the place. The rocket also has dual preinfusion and a tilted brew boiler which according to rocket is done for a reason. The boilers also look better made.
From a couple weeks of studying (and I may be wrong) it seems the extra price of the Rocket is due to slightly higher quality materials and or components. To some people that's worth the extra price. The other issue of the Rocker is the external PID, some people like to tinker and that's why they prefer the PID machines, they can always make little adjustments, so the removable PID is a hindrance. I wish I could go somewhere and see them side by side, they all seem to be great machines.
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 924 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 10:08am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
CSME9 Said:
QM 67 shot, shots always seemed a bit sour even after adjusting PID settings per tech support. Good fit & finish , pump was pretty quite for a vibe, steaming times for 4 oz 25 seconds, 8 oz 55 seconds, visible front panel flex when inserting porta filter. Hope this helps.
Try these PID settings, they worked very well on the UK model (with F3 set to C), it was again a pre-production prototype, but I wouldn't imagine the production model would have changed..
P = 5, I = 0.04, D = 7, F04 = 10
The stock settings from QM are completely wrong, they had an offset of 15 on the one I tested. As for panel flex, try a slightly thinner group gasket, manufacturers normally put one in that's approx 0.5mm too thick. They seem to do this for the same reason that adults buy kids clothes that they will grow into. End result in both cases is that nothing properly fits for the life of the item.
What's "dual preinfusion", didn't notice that on the machine I examined?
Your right, the boiler brew was tilted for a reason...interesting to know why you think it was done.
As for the boilers looking better made, very difficult for you to judge that unless you have an extensive knowledge of both machines, that may be your perception though (which is interesting).
Marketing is a very powerful thing...in my reviews/tests I try to cut through all of that. I make it a point never to read anything about a machine I'm going to review, until I complete the review. Normally it's not a problem as I often get pre production machines, or a machine a month or so before it formally launches. It used to worry me that they would make significant changes, but unfortunately manufacturers tend to release a machine warts and all even after getting specific feedback of problems. They do this because their design departments tells them the machines right (obviously otherwise they wouldn't have made it that way in the first place) and their design team has a certain amount of "face" to lose. The improvements/fixes then usually come during the first year or so. Some fix problems, others can introduce new ones, or make the machine perform worse.
So whatever marketing spin you read on a machine, needs to be tempered with factual knowledge.....difficult for people considering buying one, as of course they will not have generally used it, lived with it for 3 weeks, or even looked inside it. So all they have to go on is often what the manufacturers say.
I will say this though, the Rocket is a very well made machine, with some very good components within it.
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