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slybarman
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slybarman
Joined: 3 Nov 2011
Posts: 366
Location: usa
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra
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Posted Sat Apr 27, 2013, 1:23pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

MerleApAmber Said:

Mr. Piccinich,
A pleasure to make your acquaintance, and thank you for the notes from an industry insider. In interest of the remark above, I tend to fit the Breville sales person's statement of objective with the new machine (the Oracle) they are demonstrating. If that is the case, and they are moving toward the superauto market: I can see doing the basics well, in development of stable and dependable process via the 900xl a very well thought out intermediate step.  One which has the side benefit of giving the enthusiast public a remarkable machine at a very enticing price point.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

If thinking of a super-auto why wouldn't one go with a company that has a proven track record in superautos like Saeco?
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MerleApAmber
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Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Atlanta
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900
Grinder: Baratza Preciso + Esatto
Vac Pot: Yuma
Drip: bah-humbug
Roaster: Hot Top 2K P
Posted Sat Apr 27, 2013, 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

Check my statement: I mentioned that I have had experience with superautos of these manufacturers.  

You have to give some appreciation to the folks at Breville. They have come from an Australia specific marketplace toward one which has them playing in the world stage. Saeco, in my experience may have more experience in the waste processing / hygienics of a super auto assembly... but, Breville is making solid, sound improvements in design, function, quality assurance, and finally durability of components which did not exist before they implemented their development process.

While I appreciate "name any car manufacturer with more experience than" TESLA; I still am interested in watching the new guy on the block show the old guys new tricks.  Think anyone outside of the tried and true 1960's era aerospace/military contractors in modern aerospace today.  What Breville is doing IS innovation, successful manufacturing design, installing quality assurance during production and after the sale, and marketing to drive the economic engine. Simply, they appear to be an Up and Comer.
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cuznvin
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Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
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Posted Sat Apr 27, 2013, 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

1stline Said:

Hi All,

I actually have not kept track of this long thread as 1st-line currently does not sell Breville, but some spillover from here into the Cuadra thread caught my attention to come over here.

First and foremost, I am delighted to see a lot of activity here. However, after reading the last several pages, there is some speculation, by some BDB owners, of comparisons of the BDB to other machines with relation to build quality, price, features, etc. Mostly, this is ONLY on paper. It is only fair that owners of the other machines point out differences when speculations are made. This is mostly fair balance and is fair for BDB owners chiming in other threads where the BDB is mentioned. For example, what if there was a DB machine with more features than the BDB sold for $699. Wouldn't BDB owners want the ability to chime in on the discussion if the BDB was mentioned and add fair balance?

Although 'other machine' owners never owned a BDB, the vice versa can also be true... owners of the BDB never owned the 'other machines' to warrant a comparison or even suggest one in any fashion. Therefore, comparing one machine to other machine can lead to other owners to chime in with fair balance. This keeps it away from a one sided discussion, which is inherent in product reviews. Healthy discussions lead readers to a fair balanced, inferred conclusion of the topics at hand. To not have fair balance only leads to a one-sided discussion that can be become suspect.

I have helped many manufacturers design and improve espresso machines. I also have used many espresso machines, from single capsule, to traditional, to superautomatic, and from home machines to office models to those used in commercial environments. In fact, I have also briefly used the BDB on more than one occasion and more than one location. Like many other brands and models, it is a good machine. Like every other machine, it has its strong points and its weak points. ALL espresso machines have both strong and weak points. And, at the time of this writing, I can not comment on a BDB's internals as I have never ripped one apart to see how one is made internally.

There was a post about Italian machines piling up in a basement of a coffee shop due to reliability issues. I can say with certainty, the owner of these machines did not maintain them. I have customers who purchased machines (home, office, and commercial) over 10 years ago, and they still work fine. All espresso machines need to be maintained and serviced throughout its useful life. If not, it will end up in some basement - no matter who manufactured it.

When I visited Breville at the SCAA exhibition in Boston earlier this month, I asked the salesperson who was their target competitors for their BDB machines. I was surprised to learn it was not the Italian counterparts as speculated here. It was superautomatics. I was shocked as I thought they were comparing their machines to the Europeans. Breville's focus is to make better espresso than a superautomatic and automate as much as possible so the machine would be 'as easy to use as' a superautomatic. This is why a new machine to be released soon will have a built in grinder and auto tamper for the portafilter.

Lastly, how was the taste of the coffee out of their machines? At SCAA, two different baristas extracted quite beautiful looking espresso shots from two different models using 2 different and popular coffee beans from two well known roasters. Just to note, I pick up sour notes in espresso very, very quickly. Both espresso shots had a little too much sourness for my taste. Problem was easily solved. Raise the boiler temp up just a little. As I always say, coffee is like music. One person's heart is on jazz while another person's is on rap. Who has the better music? As an attorney would always answer, 'It depends!" The same goes for espresso machines when making comparisons.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

Thanks Jim!!
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longlong14
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Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Location: canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sun Apr 28, 2013, 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

im new here. bought a bdb for the parents and i myself have a vibiemme double domobar.
is there any way to ignore people on this forum? way too much useless crap posted by a specific set of users i rather not read.
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slybarman
Senior Member
slybarman
Joined: 3 Nov 2011
Posts: 366
Location: usa
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sun Apr 28, 2013, 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

MerleApAmber Said:

Check my statement: I mentioned that I have had experience with superautos of these manufacturers.  

You have to give some appreciation to the folks at Breville. They have come from an Australia specific marketplace toward one which has them playing in the world stage. Saeco, in my experience may have more experience in the waste processing / hygienics of a super auto assembly... but, Breville is making solid, sound improvements in design, function, quality assurance, and finally durability of components which did not exist before they implemented their development process.

While I appreciate "name any car manufacturer with more experience than" TESLA; I still am interested in watching the new guy on the block show the old guys new tricks.  Think anyone outside of the tried and true 1960's era aerospace/military contractors in modern aerospace today.  What Breville is doing IS innovation, successful manufacturing design, installing quality assurance during production and after the sale, and marketing to drive the economic engine. Simply, they appear to be an Up and Comer.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

I can't say I really follow what it is you say Breville is doing new or different from Saeco.
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PrescottCR
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PrescottCR
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 116
Location: Prescott
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: Breville
Grinder: Baratza
Roaster: Diedrich
Posted Sun Apr 28, 2013, 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

carz07 Said:

how many grams is the bdb's basket:

single basket? max dose?

double bakset? max dose?

thanks

Posted April 27, 2013 link

I hate to sound like a lawyer, but it depends. Figure 19g for the 18g basket, if your coffee fits. Light vs dark roast makes a difference here.  I was frequently doing 13.3g doses in the '10g' basket with few issues. In fact, 10g seems too small of a dose. Some have done 14g doses.  Dose too much, and the expansion of the puck will push your PF off.. so use care.

Which brings me to ask- how much does that headspace matter between the puck & screen if it's larger than recommended? I dose 14g in a VST 15g basket and there's a LOT of space. The pucks are a little soggy coming out, but the pours are fine and taste good. I think the only side affect is the dry puck feature doesn't work as well as it would if there's a small dose in the basket.
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
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Location: Frisco Bay
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Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
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Posted Sun Apr 28, 2013, 2:22pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

1stline Said:

When I visited Breville at the SCAA exhibition in Boston earlier this month, I asked the salesperson who was their target competitors for their BDB machines. I was surprised to learn it was not the Italian counterparts as speculated here. It was superautomatics. I was shocked as I thought they were comparing their machines to the Europeans. Breville's focus is to make better espresso than a superautomatic and automate as much as possible so the machine would be 'as easy to use as' a superautomatic. This is why a new machine to be released soon will have a built in grinder and auto tamper for the portafilter.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

I wouldn't put too much stock by an offhand statement made by some random soul at a trade show booth, but I think the superauto thing is true of the Oracle but not true of the BDB. Breville's people made it clear in interview after interview that the goal of the BDB was to knock off Sunbeam as the leader in the Australian home semi-automatic espresso market. The Oracle is a different machine that targets a different - and broader - market segment.

1stline Said:

...As I always say, coffee is like music. One person's heart is on jazz while another person's is on rap. Who has the better music? As an attorney would always answer, 'It depends!" The same goes for espresso machines when making comparisons.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

That's a nice, tolerant statement, but it mixes two things that aren't the same. People do have different tastes in coffee, food, music, politics, etc., and taste is mainly subjective. That doesn't mean, however, that all jazz tunes are equally good, or all steaks are equally tasty, all classical composers are as good as Beethoven, or that all espresso machines are equally good.

Some people drive Model T automobiles, and some people drive Toyota Priuses. One could say this is simply a matter of taste, but that doesn't go very far. The Prius is the better car, regardless of what you drive and what you have in the garage.

Some machines are just better than others, regardless of personal taste.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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1stline
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1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 496
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Mon Apr 29, 2013, 9:15am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

BubbaDude Said:

I wouldn't put too much stock by an offhand statement made by some random soul at a trade show booth, but I think the superauto thing is true of the Oracle but not true of the BDB. Breville's people made it clear in interview after interview that the goal of the BDB was to knock off Sunbeam as the leader in the Australian home semi-automatic espresso market. The Oracle is a different machine that targets a different - and broader - market segment.

Posted April 28, 2013 link

To answer your 'downplay' of who I spoke to, I was speaking to their national account manager for the entire USA. I also had the opportunity to meet and enjoy a discusson withe their global business manager. In addition, the Breville booth had very knowledgeable staff on hand.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
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1stline
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1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 496
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
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Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Mon Apr 29, 2013, 9:29am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

MerleApAmber Said:

You have to give some appreciation to the folks at Breville. They have come from an Australia specific marketplace toward one which has them playing in the world stage. Saeco, in my experience may have more experience in the waste processing / hygienics of a super auto assembly... but, Breville is making solid, sound improvements in design, function, quality assurance, and finally durability of components which did not exist before they implemented their development process.

....What Breville is doing IS innovation, successful manufacturing design, installing quality assurance during production and after the sale, and marketing to drive the economic engine. Simply, they appear to be an Up and Comer.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

We certainly appreciate what Breville is doing. They did their homework in design and delivering good value (features vs. price point). However, everyone needs to keep the following in perspective:

a) Innovation - there are different levels. They are not a true research leader in terms of research. They are not the Marzoccos, Rancilios, and Nuova Simonellis of the world that lead in research and development. Breville has some new things coming out (drainage feature, auto steaming, auto grind and tamp) in the machines to be rolled out in the future (two of these machines were at their booth and can be seen on our FB page). Personally, I would classify Breville as a fast follower of the commercial world to bring these innovations to the home user very quickly.
b) Marketing - their marketing plan has been very effective in developing the proper mix of features and their strategy looks like to incorporate the newest technologies researched by others. This is sometimes a very good strategy to follow. tehy also have a built up sales network of independent sales reps who visit key chain accounts. Their current largest problem is inventory.
c) Support - they are customer centric as BDB owners have shown here
d) Reliability, durability, and service - only time over the long term will determine these factors.

Again, everyone should appreciate what they are doing so far.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 496
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Mon Apr 29, 2013, 9:33am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

LatteDude Said:

Hi Jim (1stLine),

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative post.  When you were at SCAA talking to Breville, did you hear anything about an updated BES900XL that would allow for home descaling?  Thanks for your time.

Posted April 27, 2013 link

They have heard this feedback, and they will have a drain feature for home descaling in the future. Timeline TBD and I am unsure which specific models.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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