cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 418 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 11:44am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
DavecUK Said:
What's "dual preinfusion", didn't notice that on the machine I examined?
Your right, the boiler brew was tilted for a reason...interesting to know why you think it was done.
As for the boilers looking better made, very difficult for you to judge that unless you have an extensive knowledge of both machines, that may be your perception though (which is interesting).
Marketing is a very powerful thing...in my reviews/tests I try to cut through all of that. I make it a point never to read anything about a machine I'm going to review, until I complete the review. Normally it's not a problem as I often get pre production machines, or a machine a month or so before it formally launches. It used to worry me that they would make significant changes, but unfortunately manufacturers tend to release a machine warts and all even after getting specific feedback of problems. They do this because their design departments tells them the machines right (obviously otherwise they wouldn't have made it that way in the first place) and their design team has a certain amount of "face" to lose. The improvements/fixes then usually come during the first year or so. Some fix problems, others can introduce new ones, or make the machine perform worse.
So whatever marketing spin you read on a machine, needs to be tempered with factual knowledge.....difficult for people considering buying one, as of course they will not have generally used it, lived with it for 3 weeks, or even looked inside it. So all they have to go on is often what the manufacturers say.
I will say this though, the Rocket is a very well made machine, with some very good components within it.
Aha....you mean an E61 group. :-) Never heard it referred to as providing "dual pre-infusion", it's just a valve, spring and pre-infusion chamber, simple but effective. The implication being that "dual pre-infusion" as opposed to pre-infusion, is something special I suppose?
cuznvin Said:
I am not sure why they tilt the boiler. My guess is to get a higher level of water where the sensor is.
I don't believe so, they have good designers and could have simply used a deeper or differently positioned thermowell, there are a few other things to think about when designing a machine. It reduces the chance of thermosyphon stall due to a loss of water through any minor leaks in the brew circuit. This is important because the top thermosyphon takeoff is right at the very top of the brew boiler. It works to prevent this stall, as one of the tests I do is to try and induce the type of minor error condition that could cause one and it passed.It also helps cram that long boiler in. It's why the duetto has it's thermosyphon top loop about 2/3 up the boiler....the optimum position really.
Fill a bottle of water almost to the top, put the cap back on and tilt it and you'll see what I mean.
As a side not it's interesting to hear about the differences in pricing structure between the UK/USA, especially where some machines that are more expensive relative to others here, are not necessarily slow on your side of the pond?
P.S. Thermosyphon stall is one of the big problems of the Brewtus DB, simply because of the top takeoff on the brew boiler, it does not allow for even a tiny leak in the brew circuit (e.g. valves in the group etc..), the thermosyphon can quickly and easily stall unless the machine is very well maintained.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 418 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 5:31pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
DavecUK Said:
Aha....you mean an E61 group. :-) Never heard it referred to as providing "dual pre-infusion", it's just a valve, spring and pre-infusion chamber, simple but effective. The implication being that "dual pre-infusion" as opposed to pre-infusion, is something special I suppose?
I don't believe so, they have good designers and could have simply used a deeper or differently positioned thermowell, there are a few other things to think about when designing a machine. It reduces the chance of thermosyphon stall due to a loss of water through any minor leaks in the brew circuit. This is important because the top thermosyphon takeoff is right at the very top of the brew boiler. It works to prevent this stall, as one of the tests I do is to try and induce the type of minor error condition that could cause one and it passed.It also helps cram that long boiler in. It's why the duetto has it's thermosyphon top loop about 2/3 up the boiler....the optimum position really.
Fill a bottle of water almost to the top, put the cap back on and tilt it and you'll see what I mean.
As a side not it's interesting to hear about the differences in pricing structure between the UK/USA, especially where some machines that are more expensive relative to others here, are not necessarily slow on your side of the pond?
P.S. Thermosyphon stall is one of the big problems of the Brewtus DB, simply because of the top takeoff on the brew boiler, it does not allow for even a tiny leak in the brew circuit (e.g. valves in the group etc..), the thermosyphon can quickly and easily stall unless the machine is very well maintained.
Interesting. I didn't create the term dual preinfusion. Its what rocket is calling it. Seems like every machine has issues and for what they charge ..they shouldn't!
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 418 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 7:13pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
DavecUK Said:
Aha....you mean an E61 group. :-) Never heard it referred to as providing "dual pre-infusion", it's just a valve, spring and pre-infusion chamber, simple but effective. The implication being that "dual pre-infusion" as opposed to pre-infusion, is something special I suppose?
I don't believe so, they have good designers and could have simply used a deeper or differently positioned thermowell, there are a few other things to think about when designing a machine. It reduces the chance of thermosyphon stall due to a loss of water through any minor leaks in the brew circuit. This is important because the top thermosyphon takeoff is right at the very top of the brew boiler. It works to prevent this stall, as one of the tests I do is to try and induce the type of minor error condition that could cause one and it passed.It also helps cram that long boiler in. It's why the duetto has it's thermosyphon top loop about 2/3 up the boiler....the optimum position really.
Fill a bottle of water almost to the top, put the cap back on and tilt it and you'll see what I mean.
As a side not it's interesting to hear about the differences in pricing structure between the UK/USA, especially where some machines that are more expensive relative to others here, are not necessarily slow on your side of the pond?
P.S. Thermosyphon stall is one of the big problems of the Brewtus DB, simply because of the top takeoff on the brew boiler, it does not allow for even a tiny leak in the brew circuit (e.g. valves in the group etc..), the thermosyphon can quickly and easily stall unless the machine is very well maintained.
If you want a 'plumbed in' machine but can't easily plumb it, go ahead and get it as long as it has a decent sized drip tray. I simply put a porcelain 1/2 gallon pitcher next to my Brewtus IV-R, dropped the stainless steel feed line into it, and all is fine. It's easier to fill than an internal tank, but has the small downside of taking up a bit of room on the counter.
In as much as I have the pre-production prototype and specified a machine as close to perfect as I could, given the parts, limitations and constraints available at the time....yes I like my MK1. But I like a lot of other machines as well.
cuznvin Said:
Seems like every machine has issues and for what they charge ..they shouldn't!
The Duetto has it's issues, as do they all, I can't think of a machine without compromises. I'm just not influenced by a pretty face, as I said before maintenance and performance are key areas for me. Also every machine has it's day. There was a time when the Izzo Vivi was a very good HX machine when compared for price.performance and ease of maintenance with other machines. This is no longer true, in the UK the ECM Barista now holds that crown.
I also agree that espresso machines are too expensive for what you get....but that's a customer created problem (and only you guys can solve it)!
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 12:56am Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
cuznvin Said:
I am looking at the same machines. I think there is a reason the BDB is pretty inexpensive. I also dont think the steaming power is up to par. This is also what I am worried about with the QM67 since it has a small steam boiler. That is why I am leaning towards the r58. You need to decide if you want an HX or DB and then compile your lsit. The Evoluzione is an HX and the temp surfing will be something you have to work with.
The Breville DB is less expensive because it's an original design made for mass production and not an HX machine retrofitted with a second boiler and an off-the-shelf PID. The boilers are stainless steel instead of brass or copper, and they're appropriately sized for a home machine. In my experience - I've had one for a year - it is highly reliable, a good steamer, quick to warm up, and super convenient to use. The Breville has superior temperature control and stability, and better human factors (AKA "user interface") than the standard Italian machine has. It has PID control of the electronic brew group heater, something the retrofit machines don't feature, as well as an auto start timer, user programmable pre-infusion, a computer controlled cleaning cycle, and precise control of the actual brew temp without guesswork about temperature offsets.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 418 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 4:22pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
BubbaDude Said:
The Breville DB is less expensive because it's an original design made for mass production and not an HX machine retrofitted with a second boiler and an off-the-shelf PID. The boilers are stainless steel instead of brass or copper, and they're appropriately sized for a home machine. In my experience - I've had one for a year - it is highly reliable, a good steamer, quick to warm up, and super convenient to use. The Breville has superior temperature control and stability, and better human factors (AKA "user interface") than the standard Italian machine has. It has PID control of the electronic brew group heater, something the retrofit machines don't feature, as well as an auto start timer, user programmable pre-infusion, a computer controlled cleaning cycle, and precise control of the actual brew temp without guesswork about temperature offsets.
Have you used any other Dual Boiler machines to compare the shots and steaming capability to your BDB ? The specs all look great on the BDB except for the small steam boiler . I see comments about users experiencing drops in pressure after using the machine for awhile and someone discovered an issue with a gasket that Breville is supposedly changing to a different type. I am not really wanting a machine that needs to be taken apart because I am not handy enough to do that.
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 4:28pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
cuznvin Said:
Have you used any other Dual Boiler machines to compare the shots and steaming capability to your BDB ? The specs all look great on the BDB except for the small steam boiler . I see comments about users experiencing drops in pressure after using the machine for awhile and someone discovered an issue with a gasket that Breville is supposedly changing to a different type. I am not really wanting a machine that needs to be taken apart because I am not handy enough to do that.
I've used the BDB every day for a year and haven't experienced any issues with pressure drops or poor steaming capacity. The one story I saw about alleged low pressure actually reflected a user who hadn't cleaned his grinder in a long time. I roast my own beans, so I'm very attentive to pressure issues and keeping my grinder in tip-top shape.
And no, I haven't used any other dual boiler machines, nor have I been tempted.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 4:33pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
I had a Brewtus not too long ago, and my dad has one. I've always felt that his Brewtus III was the best steamer I've ever worked with, but the Breville is a totally different experience. I'm still working on how to get the right amount microfoam for latte art, but it seems just completely idiot proof for making tight and well textured foam. I've only had mine for a few days, but I already feel like the combination of the steam wand and control make it a lot easier to learn with than the bigger boiler Brewtus. This steams so quickly and is so good at minimizing big bubbles, I haven't found myself wondering how big the steam boiler is. The milk this guy makes in this video looks awesome!
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