Iluvdabean Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,070 Location: California Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia... Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro... Drip: Capresso MT 500/Pour Over Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Jan 17, 2013, 3:03pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3.0 on its way to me
I know this isnt your machine but it sounds like the same issue? Am I right? So machines even with PID will have a plus or minus 1 to 2 degrees. That seems acceptable really considering the whole picture dont you think.
According to Mark Prince the Dual Bolier Breville is in the same boat.. " The Breville Dual Boiler has PID-controlled temperature for both the brewing boiler and the grouphead's active heating system. That means if you want to have 94C temperatures, you get that, or at least very close. Again with the Scace measuring device, I saw the machine was within about 1C of the programmed setting, sometimes as close as 0.5C by the time you're 15 seconds into the shot. More importantly, the temperatures held very steady once they got to your programmed setting. I didn't do a lot of Scace testing, but the amount I did showed excellent performance for a home machine."
germantownrob Said:
My panic that the 4f dead and swing was less accurate then what I can do on a HX machine has been relieved. I forgot to ask Jason, a tech at Chris', if I could post some of his email responses so I will just relay them in my words. Where the Duetto is measuring water is at the top of the boiler near where the water supply comes in, this make the reading swing larger after brewing until the water mixed and the reading stabilizes. The temperature stability of the group should be able to handle theses swings within 2f.
We then chatted about that my temp swings are no longer larger then +/-1f when idle and even after brewing the dead band is only reading +2f on the temp over shoot. Yes my PID did learned a bit and is keeping a tighter dead band now, i was warned that lots of changes to set point temp would challenge the sorta learning the pid does. I believe switching to 20amp will improve this a bit more after steaming and brewing since heater duties won't have to alternate between heaters.
Then we got onto chatting about smoking foods and using a PID to control the pit, I guess when your job is coffee machines talking about something else is a break even if it is still PID related, lol. He is threatening a firm ware glitch so I have to bring my machine along with some Q.
Almost but not quite that far up at least on my II. When it hits that first notch the pump kicks in. It's actually pretty easy to over shoot and start the pump until you get use it. Go by ear at first you will hear the valve open and the water start trickling from your line pressure.
I like to really lock my PF in and my counter is pretty slick. I put quarter size pieces of that stuff like you use in the RV to keep your from sliding around under the front feet. The weight of that brute mashing down on that rubbery crap keeps it locked right down.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
CMIN Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2012 Posts: 558 Location: South FL Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 8:35am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3.0 on its way to me
Congrats on the machine, kick ass setup
Iluvdabean Said:
I think it was 10 or 15 years ago I quit freezing beans. I vacuum packed them with one of those vacuum packers and froze them.Then I put them in the plastic vacuum containers
That wouldn't work as good as what I do, those vacum containers don't work as well in freezers for beans for whatever reason (tried that, maybe in a deep chest they'd be good?). I use zip lock bags with the air squeezed out to fit inside ball canning jars (which have sealed tops). Works perfect, take one out at a time to defrost and use (each jar last a couple days, forget how many grams in the bags I fill), when I get low I take another out. no way there's any freezer burn or smells etc getting inside those jars. And this way as I'm using a jar I can keep squeezing air out of the bag to still retard oxidation. I've gone pry 6-8 weeks, normal freezer, not deep freeze chest, and only at the end can I tell a very very slight difference in which I have to adjust the grinder a bit towards the end, either way waaaaaaaay better then just leaving out sealed in a cup board.
Regardless I'd have no real choice as the place I primarily order fresh roast from by me only does 2lb orders so would have to be stored somehow.
Iluvdabean Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,070 Location: California Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia... Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro... Drip: Capresso MT 500/Pour Over Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 10:47am Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3.0 on its way to me
Since so much of the scrutiny and looking at this issue is subjective its become a very divisive issue. Much of coffee roasting is an art really and there truly are only a handful of master roasters out there. Ansel Adams was not only a great photographer he was great in the dark room. He fully used his vision,lage format view cameras and his dark room skills to make a mark that is lasting. For me, since I love photography also,its easy to make philosophical comparisons if you will. They both are creative, soul embracing and subjective in many ways. From roasting,to brewing, to storage to me it should remain something set in motion and let to become what it is, even including a gentle storage. With over 1000 volatile compounds (chocolate has 250 wine 450 ) set in motion through roasting , like a fine wine it needs to mature to live. Coffee beans off gas heavily for 24 to 48 hours. They will even continue to give off C02 when they are ground to some degree. To assume this process of can be frozen ( as in stooped or slowed down) isn't verifiable. To verify this thorough a subjective means proves little. Anyone who has roasted coffee and initiated this beginning process and ground the beans thorugh the life of the coffee from its birth to its end can identify the many taste change as it matures. In freezing to think you can stop and start this process at will with a freezer is presumptuous and more importantly unprovable except through subjective means. Even if you could slow it down you run the risk of altering the process of what the bean is becoming by introducing a completely diametrically opposed ingredient into the process,that is freezing. I tried it in vacuum sealed packages,air tight containers in the freezer,and vacuum sealed plastic containers in the cupboard. It at last for me wasn't working. Honestly I tried. Like I said this seems to be a divisive topic surpassed only by arguing about machines and then people arguing over techniques. I was hesitent to even post this because I think it should be more about a new espresso machine.I honestly should never have even mentioned the frozen bean thing. I thought most people had long abandoned this thinking,which was my error. I really could care less about me feeling right and wrong. To me it always will be about the bean. I like to think of us as coffee brothers who in the end if we were at each others houses drinking espresso would all just be raving about the bean,not arguing like a bunch of Pharisees over who really broke the law.
CMIN Said:
Congrats on the machine, kick ass setup
That wouldn't work as good as what I do, those vacum containers don't work as well in freezers for beans for whatever reason (tried that, maybe in a deep chest they'd be good?). I use zip lock bags with the air squeezed out to fit inside ball canning jars (which have sealed tops). Works perfect, take one out at a time to defrost and use (each jar last a couple days, forget how many grams in the bags I fill), when I get low I take another out. no way there's any freezer burn or smells etc getting inside those jars. And this way as I'm using a jar I can keep squeezing air out of the bag to still retard oxidation. I've gone pry 6-8 weeks, normal freezer, not deep freeze chest, and only at the end can I tell a very very slight difference in which I have to adjust the grinder a bit towards the end, either way waaaaaaaay better then just leaving out sealed in a cup board.
Regardless I'd have no real choice as the place I primarily order fresh roast from by me only does 2lb orders so would have to be stored somehow.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,038 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 12:34pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3.0 on its way to me
I have no feeling one way or another if people freeze. Before I froze beans I did my own digging, I came across Sivetz's patent for long term of storage, his research is full of all that good science stuff.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,038 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 12:58pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3.0 on its way to me
I have been playing with this two pounds of Aleco blend from sweet Maria's at 199f, 200, and 201. 201f, 201f is the winner. Each temp change had made a noticeable result in the cup, my liking of 201 is only a matter of personal choice over the 200f shots since they where delicious as well. This truly has put my head at ease about temperature of what goes in the cup with the Duetto. I am very please and surprised, I didn't think I would be able to tell a 1f change in temp in the cup.
Do I still want an Eric's E-61 thermometer and his Scace? well heck ya.
Good read would you mined cross posting them in my Bookmarks Thread? I can do it but would rather have your user name on it if you don't mind?
germantownrob Said:
I have been playing with this two pounds of Aleco blend from sweet Maria's at 199f, 200, and 201. 201f, 201f is the winner. Each temp change had made a noticeable result in the cup, my liking of 201 is only a matter of personal choice over the 200f shots since they where delicious as well. This truly has put my head at ease about temperature of what goes in the cup with the Duetto. I am very please and surprised, I didn't think I would be able to tell a 1f change in temp in the cup.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
Iluvdabean Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,070 Location: California Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia... Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro... Drip: Capresso MT 500/Pour Over Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 4:35pm Subject: Re: Alex Duetto 3.0 on its way to me
I read all these. Did I miss something? I couldn't find any scientific evidence that supported this premise, that freezing stops or slows the transition of freshly roasted beans. If I could see that it would then force me to reevaluate my idea that its totally a subjective judgement.
germantownrob Said:
I have no feeling one way or another if people freeze. Before I froze beans I did my own digging, I came across Sivetz's patent for long term of storage, his research is full of all that good science stuff.
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