I think it's a hard choice to make because the BDB has been on the market for a year and a half while the PID'ed E61 DB's are brand new and unproven. It wasn't that long ago that people were saying it didn't make any sense to PID an E61, but that discussion is over, at least. I personally have a PID on my wood-fired BBQ smoker, so it's fair to say I never saw a PID I didn't like.
For those who haven't taken the plunge, you need to decide whether you like the E61 retrofit approach that has PID control of both boilers and a siphon on the brew group or the Breville approach that PIDs the brew group and the brew boiler and uses a thermistor on the steam boiler. Then there are the issues about brand reliability, service policies, price, looks, and user convenience features. I personally love the shot timer and the over-fill protection on the BDB, but that's just me. Others are insistent on things like plumb-in, so you have to decide what you want.
EDIT: On a personal note, when I bought my BDB I wasn't looking for a "lifetime" machine. My theory is that the machine should last 3 - 5 years, because after that amount of time there's going to be something better on the market and I'll want to upgrade. Others want a 20 year machine or whatever.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 423 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 7:30pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
BubbaDude Said:
I think it's a hard choice to make because the BDB has been on the market for a year and a half while the PID'ed E61 DB's are brand new and unproven. It wasn't that long ago that people were saying it didn't make any sense to PID an E61, but that discussion is over, at least. I personally have a PID on my wood-fired BBQ smoker, so it's fair to say I never saw a PID I didn't like.
For those who haven't taken the plunge, you need to decide whether you like the E61 retrofit approach that has PID control of both boilers and a siphon on the brew group or the Breville approach that PIDs the brew group and the brew boiler and uses a thermistor on the steam boiler. Then there are the issues about brand reliability, service policies, price, looks, and user convenience features. I personally love the shot timer and the over-fill protection on the BDB, but that's just me. Others are insistent on things like plumb-in, so you have to decide what you want.
I dont intend to plumb and after seeing comments about having to take apart the E61 group and lubricate every so often, I am getting turned off by them. So it will probably be something like a La Spaziale Dream or BDB..
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 7:36pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
cuznvin Said:
I dont intend to plumb and after seeing comments about having to take apart the E61 group and lubricate every so often, I am getting turned off by them. So it will probably be something like a La Spaziale Dream or BDB..
I think I read somewhere that La Spaz is the biggest prosumer machine in Italy. They're been at this for a long time and there's no doubt they know what they're doing. The thing that turned me off the Mini II was all the extra costs for things like a timer and a pre-infusor, but I don't know anything about the Dream.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Iluvdabean Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,060 Location: California Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia... Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro... Drip: Capresso MT 500/Pour Over Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 7:58pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
I will tell you which one to buy. You buy the one which is better. The industry standard is E61...and it started in 1961. There is another thing follow the money trail. This is a philosophical argument but one Ive found more likely than not to be true. You get what you pay for. There is a reason the Rocket R58 costs 1500.00 more and it simply is, its a high end Italian made machine. The Breville is a fine machine in its own right but its not a Rocket R58. The Brevile is made in China. So if you want the best your going to have to pay for it. So in this order Rocket ,Quickmill and Breville.
Here is a list of machines that use E61.You have to ask yourself why?
"BFC Levetta BFC Perfetta (aka La Valentina Perfetta) ECM Cellini (aka ECM Mechanika) ECM Cellini Premium (aka Mechanika Profi) ECM Giotto (aka ECM Technika and Rocket) ECM Giotto Premium (aka ECM Technika Profi and Rocket) ECM Veneziano S1 Euro2000 Junior (aka Espressa Mini) Expobar Brewtus Expobar Control Leva Fiorenzato Briccoletta a Levetta Fiorenzato Colombina Isomac Amica (aka Omixam Mary) Isomac Hexagon Isomac Millenium (aka Omixam Roxana) Isomac Mondiale Isomac Rituale (aka Bazzar A3, Vitudurum V3 and Omixam Julie) Isomac Tea (aka Bazzar A3, Vitudurum V3 and Omixam Sophie) Isomac Zaffiro (aka Bazzar A1, Vitudurum V1 and Omixam Liliane) Izzo Alex a Levetta Izzo Vivi La Nuova Era Alexa La Scala Butterfly Magister Stella Maver Charleston (aka Cafeco Venezia CL) Maver Firenze Maver Marte Quick Mill Alexia Quick Mill Andreja Quick Mill Andreja Premium Quick Mill Anita Quick Mill Eliane Quick Mill Vetrano Salvatore Semi-Auto San Remo Treviso (manufacturer website unknown) Unico Splendor Unique Baristar Vibiemme Domobar Vibiemme Domobar Super Vitudurum V4 Wega Novacento
Machines with E61 Group Head:
Astra Gourmet Automatic Astra Gourmet Semi-Auto Astra Pro BFC Junior (aka La Valentina, Diadema, Vittoria) BFC Junior Automatic (aka La Valentina, Diadema, Vittoria) DallaCorte Super Mini ECM Veneziano A1 Expobar Office Control Expobar Office Pulser Fiorenzato Briccoletta a Pulsante Grimac La Uno Grimac La Uno Automatic Grimac Mia Isomac Relax (aka Omixam Alice) Isomac Relax Automatic Izzo Alex a Pulsante La Nuova Era Alexa Automatic Salvatore Automatic Vibiemme Domobar Super Elettronica Wega Mininova Inox (aka CMA, Astoria, San Marino) (aka Wega Lyra) Wega Mininova Inox Automatic (aka CMA, Astoria, San Marino) (aka Wega Lyra)"
The Brevile is a fine machine and if you want to buy it Im sure like all these folks you will be very very happy. But if you want to get the best of these three in my humble opinion you go in the order I gave. If you dont believe me call any reputable dealer and ask them why the Rocket costs 1500.00 dollars more, seriously doubt they are going to say because the Italians want the money and are over charging.
cuznvin Said:
So much for helping us decide on one of these machines. This is going on FOREVER!!
This comment is funny. My point is that the E61 is unproven in the PID configuration. There's a lot of history in the HX world, but it's not all that relevant.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Iluvdabean Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2005 Posts: 1,060 Location: California Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia... Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro... Drip: Capresso MT 500/Pour Over Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 8:08pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Thats cool bro...Ive spent my time here years ago arguing, I simply wanted to state my view. Enjoy your machine and in the end thats what its about. My opinions as valid as yours so we can just leave it at that.
cuznvin Senior Member Joined: 6 Oct 2011 Posts: 423 Location: NY Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 8:09pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Iluvdabean Said:
I will tell you which one to buy. You buy the one which is better. The industry standard is E61...and it started in 1961. There is another thing follow the money trail. This is a philosophical argument but one Ive found more likely than not to be true. You get what you pay for. There is a reason the Rocket R58 costs 1500.00 more and it simply is, its a high end Italian made machine. The Breville is a fine machine in its own right but its not a Rocket R58. The Brevile is made in China. So if you want the best your going to have to pay for it. So in this order Rocket ,Quickmill and Breville.
Here is a list of machines that use E61.You have to ask yourself why?
"BFC Levetta BFC Perfetta (aka La Valentina Perfetta) ECM Cellini (aka ECM Mechanika) ECM Cellini Premium (aka Mechanika Profi) ECM Giotto (aka ECM Technika and Rocket) ECM Giotto Premium (aka ECM Technika Profi and Rocket) ECM Veneziano S1 Euro2000 Junior (aka Espressa Mini) Expobar Brewtus Expobar Control Leva Fiorenzato Briccoletta a Levetta Fiorenzato Colombina Isomac Amica (aka Omixam Mary) Isomac Hexagon Isomac Millenium (aka Omixam Roxana) Isomac Mondiale Isomac Rituale (aka Bazzar A3, Vitudurum V3 and Omixam Julie) Isomac Tea (aka Bazzar A3, Vitudurum V3 and Omixam Sophie) Isomac Zaffiro (aka Bazzar A1, Vitudurum V1 and Omixam Liliane) Izzo Alex a Levetta Izzo Vivi La Nuova Era Alexa La Scala Butterfly Magister Stella Maver Charleston (aka Cafeco Venezia CL) Maver Firenze Maver Marte Quick Mill Alexia Quick Mill Andreja Quick Mill Andreja Premium Quick Mill Anita Quick Mill Eliane Quick Mill Vetrano Salvatore Semi-Auto San Remo Treviso (manufacturer website unknown) Unico Splendor Unique Baristar Vibiemme Domobar Vibiemme Domobar Super Vitudurum V4 Wega Novacento
Machines with E61 Group Head:
Astra Gourmet Automatic Astra Gourmet Semi-Auto Astra Pro BFC Junior (aka La Valentina, Diadema, Vittoria) BFC Junior Automatic (aka La Valentina, Diadema, Vittoria) DallaCorte Super Mini ECM Veneziano A1 Expobar Office Control Expobar Office Pulser Fiorenzato Briccoletta a Pulsante Grimac La Uno Grimac La Uno Automatic Grimac Mia Isomac Relax (aka Omixam Alice) Isomac Relax Automatic Izzo Alex a Pulsante La Nuova Era Alexa Automatic Salvatore Automatic Vibiemme Domobar Super Elettronica Wega Mininova Inox (aka CMA, Astoria, San Marino) (aka Wega Lyra) Wega Mininova Inox Automatic (aka CMA, Astoria, San Marino) (aka Wega Lyra)"
The Brevile is a fine machine and if you want to buy it Im sure like all these folks you will be very very happy. But if you want to get the best of these three in my humble opinion you go in the order I gave. If you dont believe me call any reputable dealer and ask them why the Rocket costs 1500.00 dollars more, seriously doubt they are going to say because the Italians want the money and are over charging.
I did ask.. And was told.. NOt worth the extra money in their opinion. Now, the rocket r58 isnt $1500 more than a la Spaziale Vivaldi or Dream which doesnt have an E61. Buy the one which is better? Who decides which one is better? I do agree about the CHina made Breville. I try to avoid products made in China because they just dont seem to care about what product they put out or what kind of poison they put in our food.
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 8:10pm Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7, Breville DB
Iluvdabean Said:
Thats cool bro...Ive spent my time here years ago arguing, I simply wanted to state my view. Enjoy your machine and in the end thats what its about. My opinions as valid as yours so we can just leave it at that.
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