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Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Trying to Decide...  
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 510
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:27am
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

germantownrob Said:

Edit: I am not going to get specific, it is just a big hunk of thermal mass done Italian style, I am sure there is more detail then that, or not, but it works and 1f adjustments I can taste, isn't that all we care about anyway? LOL

Posted January 26, 2013 link

Yes, we only want universal happiness.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 603
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:05pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

It seems to me that Izzo, QM, and Brewtus may have bolted the E61 onto their dual boiler PID machines because it was the only brew group they had lying around, not for any functional reason. In any event, it's a pretty opaque part.

Posted January 26, 2013 link

The E-61 group head maintains temp stability not only through the use of PID, but also through a thermo-syphon system that actually flushes water around the group and back into the boiler. This site has some basic info on the internal design, but I believe many machines deviate from this in that they now plumb a bit deeper into the group. I dont believe then, that it was just what they had laying around, but simply it was a functional design that worked. A thermo syphon is simple, based purely on kinetic energy, and helps prevent standing water. I have found it to be reliable so far.

BubbaDude Said:

Does this mean that the E61 DB sacrifices the control of the initial brew temp the HX has for greater stability throughout the shot? It seems that it would.

Posted January 26, 2013 link

I see your point, if the brew boiler is set higher to compensate for the group then you'd expect temp to increase throughout the shot. I haven't found this to be the case. I suppose either the fact that it's 9lbs of metal that would have to change temp, or that it's only at most 100ml moving at any time prevent's any appreciable difference. I may pull a few shots back to back tonight to see what happens. But in my initial testing back in october I didn't see a full degree change, though Im sure it's possible. Then again temperature offset isn't as significant on my machine, (boiler: 205, PID:200).

That said, I dont perform a cooling flush since my brew boiler is kept at a useful temp. I run my group before a shot to pre-heat glasses, but that's really it unless Im doing a cleaning. The group is quite hot, but not super-heated... this is going to be influenced by ambient temperature, but assuming your house isn't kept below 65 degrees F I believe the difference is negligible and can be compensated for (if it really bothers you) in the PID.

The BDB as you know has a separate chamber with a heating element directly above the group head. This set up is comprable to direct-mount single boiler machines where the group is attached to the boiler. For a couple shots in a row it's great, once you start refilling that boiler however, you may see temp drops. I think that boiler is only 150ml (?) so three pulls in, I guess is the place to begin testing -which, I am curious how much of a difference you would actually see. Also I imagine the breville temp control factors in for the group and PF as well, though they are smaller and closer to their water supply. Have you ever actually checked the internal temp? Again Im just curious, the breville control system isn't as widely described.

Dual boiler operation I imagine is quite similar across the board, be it push button or lever operated; warm you glasses however you choose, pre-infuse, pull your shot. Repeat.

 
Anthony C

Currently pulling:
Dallis Bros (NYC): New York Espresso

http://coffeeandneuroscience.wordpress.com/
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 510
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 3:02pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

acasabia Said:

The BDB as you know has a separate chamber with a heating element directly above the group head. This set up is comprable to direct-mount single boiler machines where the group is attached to the boiler.

Posted January 27, 2013 link

No it isn't. The BDB pre-heats the brew water by running it through a loop in the steam boiler on its way from the reservoir to the brew boiler and heats the group independently of the brew boiler. You can pull ten shots in a row with no deviation.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

So you're making an awful lot of noise to try to make a virtue out of a design element - the E61 - that's actually a reliability drawback, speaking objectively.

Posted January 25, 2013 link

Speaking objectively?  LOL.  
It's clear that your arguments are biased as one who works with electronics and that is where you place your faith.  Don't get me wrong, it is all good and extremely helpful.  Fruitful discourse is promoted when alternative viewpoints are freely expressed.

Of course anyone who has ever owned anything electronic knows that these things may fail; just as anyone who has ever owned anything mechanical knows that those things may fail.  In this situation, each person will "pick his poison".  

But the back-and-forth arguments over who is "right" have been tired for a long time IMO.  
It's a never-ending circle.  

Again (for the umpteenth time)...different types of espresso systems have different pros and cons.  What is "better" boils down to personal preference.  Some folks want the simplicity of digital control while some crave a more manual interactive experience.  Some folks would rather replace a machine after x years and some would rather fix and maintain a machine for y years.  Some folks love new technology and some prefer the "tried and true" designs.  

Is either one "better" than another?  Objectively speaking, it's a value judgement for each person to make.
And even at that, each person's perspective is also subject to change over time.  

.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 510
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

JonR10 Said:

Speaking objectively?  LOL. It's clear that your arguments are biased as one who works with electronics and that is where you place your faith.

Posted January 28, 2013 link

I'm not speaking from faith, I'm speaking empirically. Mechanical systems are designed around parts that wear out from friction, wear, and use, where the renewal of consumable parts is part of the ownership routine. Electronic systems are designed to operate for some period of time before being taken out of service and are not built with consumable parts. These are facts, not personal opinions. Which one a person buys is a matter of personal preference, but the laws of physics are not subjective.

Something interesting is going on with the adaptation of the mechanical E61 to the electronically controlled dual boiler world, and I'm not sure I know how it's going to play out. I'm waiting for data on reliability, but it's good that the E61 people have finally ditched their pressurestats.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 5:32pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

Mechanical systems are designed around parts that wear out from friction, wear, and use, where the renewal of consumable parts is part of the ownership routine. Electronic systems are designed to operate for some period of time before being taken out of service and are not built with consumable parts.

Posted January 28, 2013 link

Thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly.  ;-)

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 510
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 6:11pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

JonR10 Said:

Thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly.  ;-)

Posted January 28, 2013 link

And thank you for distorting mine so utterly. A day without a strawman argument on the Internet is like a day without sunshine.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JonR10
Senior Member
JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 6:48pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

Apologies to all for the thread drift.  These will be my last words on the offtopic subject.

BubbaDude Said:

And thank you for distorting mine so utterly. A day without a strawman argument on the Internet is like a day without sunshine.

Posted January 28, 2013 link


So - quoting you verbatim is a distortion?  LOL.

Your assertion was that mechanical assemblies require replacement parts from time to time, and you somehow believe that is different from the requirement to replace electronics from time to time.  But, once again, your pattern is predictable: when facts don't support your position you resort to insults.  

I'm sure you will have more of the same for me, please feel free.  I'm done here.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 510
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 6:56pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

JonR10 Said:

So - quoting you verbatim is a distortion?  LOL.

Your assertion was that mechanical assemblies require replacement parts from time to time, and you somehow believe that is different from the requirement to replace electronics from time to time.

Posted January 28, 2013 link

The distortion was your claim that I was saying one design is "better" than the other. I will say that assemblies that have no moving parts generally last longer between service incidents than those that are made from mechanical parts. Anyone with an engineering education knows this, of course.

If you don't want to have this discussion, don't bring it up in the first place. I'm puzzled as to why you keep bringing it up and then suddenly dropping it.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Trying to Decide R58, Quickmill Qm7,  Breville DB
 

BubbaDude Said:

The distortion was your claim that I was saying one design is "better" than the other. I will say that assemblies that have no moving parts generally last longer between service incidents than those that are made from mechanical parts. Anyone with an engineering education knows this, of course.

If you don't want to have this discussion, don't bring it up in the first place. I'm puzzled as to why you keep bringing it up and then suddenly dropping it.

Posted January 28, 2013 link

So much for helping us decide on one of these machines. This is going on FOREVER!!
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