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Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Any one here...  
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eeeehaw
Senior Member
eeeehaw
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 12
Location: WA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1, Francis...
Grinder: Breville Smart Grinder
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

billc Said:

PID in this case is a control theory (algorithm) used in an electronic temperature controller to help the controller determine how much power to deliver to the water to maintain a set point temperature.
billc

Posted December 30, 2012 link

Are you saying that the *only* parm controlled in this machine is boiler water temperature?  (ie, no other parm such as water pressure, volume, etc)

I guess I would have expected nested/parallel PID controls in a machine of this calibre, for reaching consistent control of temp, pressure, volume, similar to what we sought after in the industrial process control applications I've been involved with in the past.  The digital electronics is presumably present in this model to affect such expanded control beyond simply water temperature, needing only pertinent PV sensors and software.  IF the PID control in this machine is simply temp only, then I may be able to compensate for marginally functional temp sensor or heating element by adjusting the P or D gain factors...maybe I'll try that next (PID settings are currently at 2, 2, 4 respectively, presumably the factory settings which are also presumably gain factors instead of some other values).
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 715
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

eeeehaw:

I can't help but think you are working hard to find a problem you don't have.

According to the plumbing schematic in the manual, the water to the brew head comes of the top of the boiler and the inlet water and the sensor is at the bottom of the boiler. Convection being what it is, I would say this is the only way it could be done. Its naturally going to cool off at the bottom of the boiler when the pump kicks on to start the brew cycle (pumps cold water into the bottom of the tank).

When you look at the electrical schematic in the manual, there appears to be a temperature sensor at the bottom of the boiler and one of the steam block... that is it.

I am not familiar with every PID machine out there, but most all of them are similar when it comes to the actual temperature control. I am not sure even the machines over $6000 use electronics and pressure transducers to control brew pressure... maybe they do, but that still would not eliminate your responsibility to dial in the grind to get a good extraction.

Click Here for CC1 Manual
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,026
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

If I try it as a math problem to determine boiler water temperature, then 60 ml of 60F water and 440 ml of 200F water should give 500 ml of about 179-180F water when it has mixed.  The sensor could be faulty, or could just be in the cold water intake area.  This would make sense as it would then call for heat while the water temperature is equalizing.

From reading this thread, 180F is about what most experience.  Not sure why a given machine would act differently, but the actual water temperature should equalize at about 180F even without added heat.  Also, brew water should be hot as it should not be taking the cold water for output.

BillC suggested that the other explanation is that more water could be input and exit from the OPV to tank return if I understood his post.  He suggested a measurement to check.  With a stabilized boiler temperature, it would seem that a 2 oz draw with the thermocouple placed as he suggested would give the temperature of the brew water.  Wait about 60 seconds and repeat.  If everything is really working, then the second brew water should be 180F of more.  

I have not seen any results as BillC suggested.

Most PID controllers used in espresso machines are temperature devices, some with alarms, but not all.  Some with timers for more money, and for preinfusion.  That is what I found when looking for economic controllers advertised for espresso use.  I understand that other functions can be added as you have noted.

I also looked at the manual before I posted the first time.  I only saw the temperature sensor, not a pressure or flow device.  While I do not share your BSEE credentials, I can read and search, and try to help.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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gabilush
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jan 2013
Posts: 2
Location: florida
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: cc1 crossland
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 7:15pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Tomorrow I should receive my first espresso machine, CC1 crossland. I was so excited about my new toy, but after reading these new reviews I am not sure I made the right  choice.
Could you please help me here? Did I make a good choice?
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 857
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 7:31pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Welcome.  

The CC1 is a good choice in the price range and would probably be my choice. I think it's a way way way better for a first machine than a say a Jura Super Auto or the like. If your drinking milk drinks which I am just guessing will be the case it is even stronger a stronger choice. Knowing the CC1 1.5 is available I would look into my options exchange/return/upgrade options, but that is me this is all just my opinion.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 715
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Ok.... here is the goo...

I took a low mass K type thermocouple and removed the shower screen and placed in in the hole as Bill described.

Before I started I checked my thermocouple in rolling boiling water and it measured 211.3. The readings on my thermometer would go from room temperature to boiling in less than 2 seconds (fast enough)

My boiler was set to 200F.

When I turned the pump on, the water coming out of the boiler (measured at the shower screen screw hole) was 203F

Looks like I am running a little hotter than I thought I was, but nothing I cant live with.

I still think you are looking for a problem you don't have. Your machine works just like mine. All the design can do is deliver the right temperature water to the brew head and it is doing that.
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gabilush
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jan 2013
Posts: 2
Location: florida
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: cc1 crossland
Posted Tue Jan 1, 2013, 7:55pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Thank you.
I  forgot to mention, it is a CC1 1.5. I feel a little better now. And yes, I cant wait to make my cappuccino and my latte.

My other issue now is I can't decide on the grinder. I've read so much about the grinders, and how important is for the quality of the espresso shot. If you have any suggetions, I would really apreciate.
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billc
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 135
Location: Seattle, Washington
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: CC1 - GS - GS3 - GB5
Grinder: Baratza - Mazzer-Marzocco
Drip: My own Creation
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 8:16am
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Yes, I do use the parallel form of the PID control so the values do not interact with each other.  Makes the adjusting of values a bit easier since any change you made has only impact on that variable.

The PID control is only for temperature control.  There is no pressure control on this machine other then the OPV.  There is some other feedback but no other variable uses any control theory.  The volume control is either on or off so there is no real need for additional control theory.

You can adjust the PID values all you want but just remember what the defaults are.  The default values represent a good compromise between temperature stability of the boiler to recovery time.  Changing these values will most likely not help in your situation however because the temp drop you are seeing will turn the element on at 100% power.  The control really does not start until you are within 15-20 degrees F of the set point temp.

You can always PM me and we can set something up so I can look at it or help over the phone.



BillC
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revolver1978
Senior Member
revolver1978
Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 21
Location: Pittsburgh
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky Doserless
Vac Pot: --
Drip: --
Roaster: --
Posted Wed Jan 2, 2013, 8:17am
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

gabilush Said:

Thank you.
I  forgot to mention, it is a CC1 1.5. I feel a little better now. And yes, I cant wait to make my cappuccino and my latte.

My other issue now is I can't decide on the grinder. I've read so much about the grinders, and how important is for the quality of the espresso shot. If you have any suggestions, I would really appreciate.

Posted January 1, 2013 link

I picked up a used Rocky on eBay for use with my Crossland 1.5. I was watching some online videos and most places seem to have it set around 10 for a 27 sec shot; mine works best at 14. However, different beans, age of the burrs, tamp, water quality - it all comes into play.

If I were buying new, I'd get a Preciso or splurge for a Vario. . . . MAYBE the Breville Smart Grinder. However, the Rocky was $225, works well, and I don't need (or can't yet appreciate) the level of control a stepless grinder provides.

Definitely get a grinder w/o a doser, unless you make a lot of coffee at once. . .

So far I've used La Prima (local to Pittsburgh,) Black Cat, and Velton's Bonsai Blend (came with CC1 from SCG.) I also used some oily unlabeld blend that I had picked up from a local coffee house. I think my faves were the La Prima and Black Cat. I found the Velton's a little sour, but I haven't played with the settings much.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 715
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Sat Jan 5, 2013, 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

This thread is long and I am not sure this is the best place to post this, but the conversation was started here, so I will add some more info from my own test today.

There has been discussion about how warm the water is when it leaves the brew head. In my previous post, I reported that the water temperature above the shower screen was very close to boiler temperature for a normal shot duration.

Today, I placed a small low mass thermocouple in the bowl of the portafilter by threading the thermocouple through one of the holes in the double portafilter. I did NOT put the basket in the portafilter. I left the portafilter connected to the brew head until internal temperature was near 160 F (the air temperature inside of the portafilter housing). Boiler temperature was 200F. When I turned the brew pump on, water in the bowl of the portafilter peaked at 181F and when total shot reached about 3.5 oz, it began to cool off.

I stopped the pump, and waited a minute or so for the boiler to recover back to 200F. I turned the pump on again, but this time everything was preheated from the previous test as outlined above. Water temperature in the bowl of the portafilter reached 200.3 quickly (after about 1 to 1.5 oz of water flow).

I know this is not a terribly scientific test, but it does prove that if you preheat the portafilter, it shouldn't be any trouble to get the basket and coffee to brew temperature. We have to remember that the water doesn't come in direct contact to the cooler portafilter housing until after it has passed through the basket.  Since the basket does not have near the thermal mass to draw heat way from the water like the portafilter housing, this test should be definitive enough that there is no reason to worry about being able to get the right temperature water to the basket.

I know that someone is going to say "Hey, it took 1 to 1.5 oz before it came up to temp even after you preheated". That is true, but you have to remember that this test was with water in the bowl of the portafilter, and no basket in place, which will draw more heat away from the water than the smaller thermal massed basket. I would have loved to test the water temperature above the basket (with the basket in place), but I don't have anyway to do that without destroying a basket, and I didn't want to do that. This test is good enough for me to believe in the design.

Edit: The reaction time on my low mass thermocouple is about 2 seconds, so actual performance is probably better than what I have reported here as far as how much water it took to achieve the 200.3 in the bowl of the preheated portafilter.

Edit 2: Here is a guy on YouTube that built a test apparatus with a K thermocouple above the basket to test his machine. This is similar to what I did, but since I didn't have a basket to sacrifice, I tested with just the portafilter housing installed. The test in the video below would be more accurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5pspPfVSjs
If you want a fancy commercial built one, here is the link:
http://www.espressoparts.com/EP_THERMOFILTER2
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