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Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 647
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Wed Dec 26, 2012, 5:16pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

eeeehaw:

I have a CC1. My temperature display also drops sharply when the pump kicks on. My pucks usually do not come out clean. I use a lighter roast freshly ground coffee.

I also have problems with the steam want dripping up to 1/4 cup of water out onto the counter during heat up if the steam want is not placed over a cup or over the drip tray. This is something to do with the seat in the steam valve not sealing. I think I have heard of other people having this issue.

Right now I use 200F with a 4 second infusion and a 3 second wait time with total time of 28 seconds. I use 18 grams of coffee.  I usually yield between 1.75 and 2.25 ounces with a abundant dark crema.  I have never been consistent enough to play with brew temperature and infusion time.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:47pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

I am not familiar with the specifics of the CC1, but have used a PID on my Gaggia and did a little PID research. I will try to explain what I think is happening. The PID is a damped temperature controller that is adjustable. It will try to maintain temperature at idle and minimize temperature overshoot. It is more stable, has less variability or dead band, and is slower to achieve temperature because it is damped in response than bimetal thermostats. The registered temperature is a temperature at the temperature probe and the PID is actually trying to stabilize the temperature of its sensor, the probe. The boiler case and water temperature are different than the probe. They get similar at long time idle or warm up. When you turn on the pump, hot water is sent to the group/puck and cold water enters the tank. I suspect that the water enters close to the probe, or is directed on to it. You then see a rapid fall of probe temperature. That allows the PID to react and call for heat. You are getting a dilution of say 60 ml of water at about 60 - 70F into a tank of about 500 ml water at about 200F. The tank water temperature does not fall much, but the probe temperature does. This starts the call for PID turn on. If you turned off the machine for a minute and added no heat, but allowed the water to equilibrate, the temperature would not be that cold. I am too lazy to calculate the cold calories in vs. the calories of heat in the tank and figure the dilution. Turn off the machine for a minute and then turn it on and see if the probe is still at 160F.

The temperature that you are after is that at the puck for brewing. You can somewhat approximate with the Styrofoam cup and instant digital thermometer, or a thermocouple over the lip of the PF, or a Scace device, or thermofilter. If the cold water input into the tank and the hot water output to the puck are sufficiently separate, the puck will see very little fall in temperature with one pull. Even the Gaggia with about 105 ml tank does not have that large a temperature fall at the puck.

I could be all wrong in my understanding of the CC1, but this is more based on the working of a PID and how it senses and reacts.

A little light reading about PIDs based on Gaggia, but similar.

Click Here (www.afonic.org)

Energy calories in the first few pages below, and then figuring how the PID works

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/571792

and temperature device/thermofilter

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/588424

Or, you can use taste in the cup to guess that the temperature at the puck and into the cup are still hot enough :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:56pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

eeeehaw Said:

Oh, and one more thing:  when pulling the first 10 shots from the CC1, the 3-way solenoid valve worked beautifully, leaving a fairly dry puck that fell out of the porta-filter.  Didn't even have to rinse the PF with tap water, as I had been used to doing on my previous machine (which had no 3-way valve).  This is with the "medium" (kinda light to me) roast beans SCG sent me home with to get going with, particularly to calibrate my new grinder with.  The next day, I switched to the oily medium-dark beans I prefer (at the lightest; I actually use a dark roast normally, but haven't tried  that yet with this machine); I immediately noticed that the PF puck was no longer dry, considerably wetter.  I have to rinse out the PF with tap water now, before running some hot water from the machine through it before loading up the next round of ground.

This also seem okay to you folks?

Posted December 26, 2012 link

The 3 way is working if the pressure is released promptly.  If you try to loosen the PF and it is locked tight by pressure or sprays, then the 3 way is not working correctly.  The 3 way removes pressure and takes a little water off of the top.  To illustrate, if you only put a single dose in a double PF then the 3 way will not pull or suck the water off of the top down to the grinds.  You will get some variability of expansion by age, roast and bean variability and by dose.  Correspondingly you will get some variability of water left in or on the puck by the 3 way.  # ways can also stick and not work well if they are not cleaned/backflushed.  When they stick, the pressure will remain high and you will notice that trying to remove the PF as described.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Thu Dec 27, 2012, 7:53am
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Pretty much any machine will show a temp drop when pulling a shot as the boiler pulls in cooler water, but may be something wrong if your pulling shots and the temp goes as low as 160/dashes. Mines never done that, I usully have mine at 202 also and shots end at low 190's or in the 180's, the water actually hitting the puck is the water that was heated to X temp, it's pretty stable on this machine from measuring the water temp actually coming out.

Far as pucks, yeh like above too many variables, one day you could get a dry puck, next wet. Beans slightly aged, slight change in grind, tamp slightly different etc etc. Long as it works though it's fine whether you have a dry or wet puck (wet, not "soupy wet" lol).
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 847
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Thu Dec 27, 2012, 8:45am
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Temp issues were the one negative for me while testing the CC1. I tasted it first on the straight shots and confirmed it with a scace. I am not saying it is a show stopper everyone by any means. For a fussy straight shot drinker the CC1 might not be the play, depending.

CMIN Said:

Pretty much any machine will show a temp drop when pulling a shot as the boiler pulls in cooler water

Posted December 27, 2012 link


I don't buy this on the majority of HX or DB machines. Most have, save maybe a few entry levels, adequately sized boilers and E-61 or better groups. Maybe that is the case with SBDU machines.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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ampguy
Senior Member
ampguy
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 121
Location: Pac NW
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:33pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

I get consistent pours, but do have to watch the grinder settings to go finer, if beans are getting older.

I run about 202, and during a 25 sec pour for 2 oz., the display might go down to the 190s, but I'm pretty sure that is the sensor in the boiler, where a couple ounces from the tank are swirling water in the large .5 l boiler, and am confident the ~2 oz. espresso water is consistent.

If I wake up and the kitchen is still 64 deg., after the machine beeps, I'll flush a couple of seconds, and let it recover while I"m preparing. I don't even worry about it beeping or getting to target, if it's within a couple of degrees, I'm confident that the in the cup and pf temps are good to go.

If you just got your machine, and grinder, it may take you weeks to dial in the grinder with a specific bean, to pour x oz in x seconds, but if you're dropping to 160 from 200, it's hard to imagine you're not pouring a gusher or much more volume than say 2 oz in 25 seconds, indicating you may want to grind finer.
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eeeehaw
Senior Member
eeeehaw
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 12
Location: WA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1, Francis...
Grinder: Breville Smart Grinder
Posted Sat Dec 29, 2012, 3:03pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

First, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions...you guys are fantastic!  Based on your feedback, I was incented to do some temperature measurements this morning (I'm a BSEE with pro test equip).

Using a Fluke 179 DVM with temperature probe, I monitored water temp out of the group head during the pour.  This model DVM is accurate to +-0.1degF, with temp probe response time <100msec.  The CC1 pour program is custom set to a total of 29 sec, which consists of 2secs preinfusion, 2secs pause time, 25 secs shot pour.  Setpoint temp is 202degF.  I did NOT place the porta-filter into the group head for this test measurement, in order to eliminate the PF heating variable from the test, and inserted the temp probe directly into one of the water streams coming down.  The total volume of water dispensed on average during the 3 final test measurement pours was 8.2oz each (because of no coffee puck resistance, there's more volume dispensed); this would be a more extreme case of water temperature drop, I expect, because of that greater volume.  Perhaps I'll next try with a my usual 2oz coffee pull.  The machine had been on for 4.5 hrs, plenty of time to warm up & stabilize.  Here's what happened:

Machine display at start: 202degF
Machine display at end: --- (less than 150degF)
Water temp at start during preinfusion: 181.7degF
Water temp 2 secs into shot pull (not inc prefusion & pause time): 204.6degF
Water temp  6 secs into shot pull: 190.7degF
Water temp 10 secs into shot pull: 180.3degF
Water temp stabilized at abt 180degF during the middle of the pull
Water temp at end 25 secs into shot pull: 163.4degF

The machine's displayed water temp during the pour was lower than actual water temp out of the group head, which I suspect is probably due to the machine's temp sensor (probably a thermistor, which is typically what's used in machines with a PID or electronic temp control) being in the boiler near the pump inlet of cool water.

I have confirmed that my machine is dropping water temperature into the PF significantly.  Given that a couple posters here are reporting their CC1s dropping significantly less in temp than mine during the pour implies I might have a problem with my machine.  This assumes that the PID is not purposely forcing the temp profile during the pour differently from those other posters by design.  BTW, some comments on PID design...

PIDs are circuits that purportedly balance pressure, volume/time, and temperature during the pour for optimum quality results.  PIDs do NOT all behave the same, as those from different manufacturers are of different design and typically made with different components that operate differently.  Today's latest PID designs are digital, using a microprocessor or microcontroller chip with pertinent code in firmware.  The temperature sensor used can be either a thermocouple or thermistor, which behave differently (thermistor response time is slower than a thermocouple, but requires less interface circuitry and is arguably best suited for espresso machine application).  Differential pressure sensors vary widely in design specs & methods.  In nearly all control systems, there is a feedback loop that the system is designed to utilize in keeping it's control output at the desired value and within the desired range.  There is a delay time in that control loop that can vary from microseconds to minutes, typically by design.  My educated guess is that a typical PID has negligible closed-loop control delay in its electronics, and any significant delay is more dependent upon sensor and control valve placement in the water system.  Faults can occur when the control loop opens, eg when a temp sensor or valve is faulty or an open circuit occurs in their wiring.  I had designed a perotonial dialysis machine (a type of kidney machine) early in my career, and saw a few faulty thermistors back then that exhibited extremely slow response times, so that may be a possible component failure in my case.  However, this is a new machine under warranty, and I'm not willing to break into it & invest time that risks voiding the warranty.  If I can build a case that this is abnormal (this is where ya'll's opinion & experience is so valuable), then perhaps I can go argue with SCG.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 647
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Sat Dec 29, 2012, 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

What is the volume of water after the 25 seconds? I am assuming you are running no restriction while testing so the volume of water would be much higher than a normal shot. If you are running an actual shot with coffee in the portafilter, I would expect water temperatures to be much lower than brew temperature after flowing through the portafilter.

I know on my CC1, the entire brew head is very hot if you let it warm up for 30 minutes or so.

With a 200F boiler, I get about 181F when I run two oz of water into a Styrofoam cup. I am using a standard digital thermometer (not low mass) that I preheated to 125 F before I measured the water temperature in the foam cup. I would expect some temperature drop. Don't know how this compares to other machines. The water has to run over the shower screen and fall though open air to get into my foam cup, so I know it is going to cool off. I am making this test with no portafilter in place. I just preheated the shower screen a bit, waited for the boiler to come back up to 200F and then ran 2 oz of water directly into a foam cup. I don't consider this an accurate test of brew temperature, but I think it is safe to assume that 2 oz of water is well above 181 F at the brew head.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat Dec 29, 2012, 4:36pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

Your 8.2 oz of water in 25 seconds overwhelms any meaningful temperature measurement.  You added about 1/2 of your boiler volume IIRC of about 500 ml.  You need a thermofilter to simulate a puck, or a probe over the lip in the puck, or try the Styrofoam cup.  Also, PID temperature sensors could be thermocouples, RTD sensors or thermistors.  I do not see thermistors used routinely with PID, and not all even have settings for thermistors.  Mine did not have a thermistor setting.  I used a thermistor for my own learning in my thermofilter and got about the same result as a thermocouple.  In addition to a volume problem , how did you anchor the thermocouple, any insulation or waterproofing.  The volume of water adds too much cooling and the flow rate would cause more mixing and likely would also put more cool water in the group outflow.

Look at the first part of the test without the large volume of water.  You are running about 10 ml/sec as you should from that pump, unobstructed.

Try a piece of duct tape in the bottom of your double basket with a single pinhole through a single basket hole.  Do not try to enlarge it and ruin your basket.  Fill the basket with pieces of crumpled aluminun foil, and you have a trial thermofilter.  Put the thermocouple over the lip and lock it in.  It works if you have a small enough thermocouple wire, or if you strip off the insulation.
If you use a single pinhole and carefully clean the machine of all grinds, it works.  A single grind at the pinhole can plug it.  I would remove the screen and do a chemical back flush several times and then leave the screen off.  I tried the duct tape also to try to find the correct hole(s) for correct flow of about 45 - 50 ml.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/588424

I did the aluminum foil puck before I made the HDPE disk.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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eeeehaw
Senior Member
eeeehaw
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 12
Location: WA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1, Francis...
Grinder: Breville Smart Grinder
Posted Sat Dec 29, 2012, 7:06pm
Subject: Re: Any one here have a Crossland CC1 yet?
 

DeanOK: the volume as noted in my prior post on measurements avg 8.2oz per pull; without the PF one would expect more volume than with a coffee puck & PF in place.  Of course, this skews the temp results, but I submit is interesting nonetheless as it indicates recovery capacity during the pull.

D4F: My probe is a thermocouple with very fast response, and (as stated in my post) placed directly into the water stream coming out of the grouphead.  I don't see the value of the styrofoam cup approach as it will show the accumulative average of water temperature, not the instantaneous change in temp of the flowing brew water.  Your idea of a "trial thermofilter" is fascinating, but I don't understand how that will relate to verifying the temp *change* I'm seeing in the CC1 display being correct, since the specific heat of aluminum or other material will be different from coffee grounds (esp Al, which is second only to Li) thus invalidating absolute temp readings as the pseudo "puck" absorbs heat from the water (or emits it if it's hotter than the water at any point during the pull).   With that said, it does beg the question in my mind as to whether there's value of measuring water temp inside a real coffee puck in the PF, but I haven't yet figured out how I can get my probe inside the PF without violating the PF gasket seal or modifying the PF with a hole large enough to get inside it.  I do have a bottomless PF that I'll noodle over.  But, I'm concerned with temperature change, specifically correlating the change I see in the machine's display with that of the brew water to see why I'm seeing such a large drop on the machine's display, and currently believe that measuring the coffee stream temp coming out of the PF should suffice for that.

Since my last post, I did some temp measurements with the usual ground coffee puck in the PF, while satisfying my afternoon need for caffeine (nothing like 6 shots in the afternoon!).  The volume for all 3 (double shot) test pulls was exactly 2oz (BTW, this CC1 has been very consistent on volume dispensing so far), same machine program, machine display starting at 202degF.  I inserted the temp probe directly into one of the two coffee streams from the PF during the pulls.  The results were a bit counter-intuitive to me, and quite different from the previous tests without PF (those previous tests had temps within 1degF at the same points in the pull between the 3 tests).  This time, the temperature at the start of the coffee stream became successively *lower* for each consecutive test, while the temp at the end of the pull became *higher*.  Not sure what the means, or that it has any meaningful effect/value, but that phenomena seems interesting.  For examp: during the first pull, the start of the stream was 138.2degF, compared to 134.1degF on the second pull, and 129.7degF on the third;  meanwhile, at the end of the first pull the temp was 170.8degF, 180.2degF for the second pull, and 183.2degF for the third pull.  the middle of the time of the first pull showed 162.3degF, second pull was 173.4degF, and 173.9degF for the third pull.  I guess I would have expected the temps for both start and end of each successive pull to drop, if it changed at all.  Again, I don't know that this matters.
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