I have felt your pain.. Twice. I went through what you are going through but with fresh coffee. I think the Vario sucks. I ended up buying a kit that modifies the proline and am very happy. I like the PL because I can turn the knob and KNOW that the grind will change.. The Vario.. Not so much. I was so frustrated I hired two baristas to come over and show me what I was doing wrong. Do a search for the proline mod and you will be happy.
I've been using a 2 to 1 guideline and weigh the shots so 18g of beans, I shoot for 36g liquid in around 32-35 seconds on the shot clock. I don't know if that's a normale, ristretto or any of the other fancy names. <g> I just know it tastes good.
Wow, 36g is less than 1.3 ounces, which is much less than I was expecting to pull. I was always shooting for 2 oz with my 18g double shots as well. Are most people here straight espresso drinkers who frown upon coffee drinks with milk? My view of the world is a little tainted thanks to the large latte sizes offered at local shops. Are those shops just putting 1-2 ounces of espresso with 15-18 ounces of steamed milk or do they increase the amount of espresso to make those enormous drinks? My wife is a very big latte drinker and will most likely never switch to straight espresso, so I am trying to find the correct mix of espresso and milk. It will seem odd to make little 6oz latte with 2oz of espresso and 4 oz of milk, so I was hoping some others here that drink lattes could provide some guidance. Do I need to pull multiple espresso shots to make a reasonably balanced larger latte or should I pull a lungo?
Wow, 36g is less than 1.3 ounces, which is much less than I was expecting to pull. I was always shooting for 2 oz with my 18g double shots as well. Are most people here straight espresso drinkers who frown upon coffee drinks with milk? My view of the world is a little tainted thanks to the large latte sizes offered at local shops. Are those shops just putting 1-2 ounces of espresso with 15-18 ounces of steamed milk or do they increase the amount of espresso to make those enormous drinks? My wife is a very big latte drinker and will most likely never switch to straight espresso, so I am trying to find the correct mix of espresso and milk. It will seem odd to make little 6oz latte with 2oz of espresso and 4 oz of milk, so I was hoping some others here that drink lattes could provide some guidance. Do I need to pull multiple espresso shots to make a reasonably balanced larger latte or should I pull a lungo?
Yes, 36g of water would be 1.3 oz by volume if you had no crema, but that would be a fail. I find that more of the better espresso shops are weighing these days, as it's the only way to get consistent, reproducible results. The amount of crema is large for very fresh beans (3 days post-roast) and falls off steadily over days 4 - 8 and that may be half your volume.
I figure most people in this thread are new to the BDB and maybe new to espresso overall and are looking to develop technique, so the best thing is to keep it simple. If you can make a good cup of espresso, making good milk drinks isn't going to be much of challenge, and you may just find that your taste for milk drinks falls off after you've enjoyed a good espresso.
That being said, when I want a milky drink, I measure out 4 oz of milk, steam it up, and pour it behind a double shot until it looks right. Since milk drowns the espresso flavor, it can be beneficial to over-roast and/or over-extract a bit, but I tend to use the same roast and pull regardless. If all i have on hand between roasts is a roast that's too dark or too old for good espresso, I'll cover it up with milk.
My main thing these days is roasting, so all I want my espresso maker to do is deliver whatever is in the roast, good, bad, or ugly.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
My view of the world is a little tainted thanks to the large latte sizes offered at local shops. Are those shops just putting 1-2 ounces of espresso with 15-18 ounces of steamed milk or do they increase the amount of espresso to make those enormous drinks? My wife is a very big latte drinker and will most likely never switch to straight espresso, so I am trying to find the correct mix of espresso and milk. It will seem odd to make little 6oz latte with 2oz of espresso and 4 oz of milk, so I was hoping some others here that drink lattes could provide some guidance. Do I need to pull multiple espresso shots to make a reasonably balanced larger latte or should I pull a lungo?
Like yours, my girlfriend prefers the milk drinks and is a flavored latte woman to boot so she doesn't appreciate the expression of a great pull. Me, I bounce back and forth between straight and a latte but as Bubbadude states, I also do the 36g double shot to about 4 oz of milk. When it's frothed, it's about the size of a $arbucks tall. I would guess they increase the # shots by the size of the cup but can't prove that as I've never actually watched them. I usually take a sip of every shot, regardless of it's intended use. But milk coveres a whole lot of sins.
Yes, 36g of water would be 1.3 oz by volume if you had no crema, but that would be a fail. I find that more of the better espresso shops are weighing these days, as it's the only way to get consistent, reproducible results.
damn rich. i know you and i were both educated as engineers, but must we be so very much of the same mind? i often don't jump in every time i feel like it's necessary, because i know you will, and that you will give the same advice i would.
anyhow, i'm stunned at the resistance i meet out in other forums when i bring up weighing. the pattern of resistance seems to come in a dumbbell shape--the makeup of two lobes being: "deer in headlights" newbies, and espresso jedi masters who pull so many shots, they just know by using "the force"... or something. for the newbs, weighing is SUPER easy and the scales you need are cheap-- under $20. even if you don't want to weigh every time, a scale is a good diagnostic tool to have in your kit. if you stick with espresso and advance, you WILL encounter times where scales useful to help untie some knot you find yourself in.
btw, lately for the last few months i've been feeling kind of third-wave'y and going ristretto pretty hard. haven't pulled a normale in months. though i have yet to buy a fixie or extract a weight lighter than the cry coffee charge in the puck, i've done plenty at 1:1 through about 1 coffee:1.3 beverage.
here is the guide i use in what to call the drink, based on the ratio of dry coffee to extracted beverage.
damn rich. i know you and i were both educated as engineers, but must we be so very much of the same mind? i often don't jump in every time i feel like it's necessary, because i know you will, and that you will give the same advice i would.
anyhow, i'm stunned at the resistance i meet out in other forums when i bring up weighing. the pattern of resistance seems to come in a dumbbell shape--the makeup of two lobes being: "deer in headlights" newbies, and espresso jedi masters who pull so many shots, they just know by using "the force"... or something. for the newbs, weighing is SUPER easy and the scales you need are cheap-- under $20. even if you don't want to weigh every time, a scale is a good diagnostic tool to have in your kit. if you stick with espresso and advance, you WILL encounter times where scales useful to help untie some knot you find yourself in.
btw, lately for the last few months i've been feeling kind of third-wave'y and going ristretto pretty hard. haven't pulled a normale in months. though i have yet to buy a fixie or extract a weight lighter than the cry coffee charge in the puck, i've done plenty at 1:1 through about 1 coffee:1.3 beverage.
here is the guide i use in what to call the drink, based on the ratio of dry coffee to extracted beverage.
im being dumb here but if your new to something you do would sound like one. using scale should i place the scale below the shot glass while pulling so i can see the weight or weight the glass after pulling the shot?
if i weight after pulling a shot it would mean, i should be looking at the time first and then weight and see what matches?
Great minds and all that. When I complimented the barista at Chromatic for weighing she just said "you can't really eyeball this stuff, it changes too much." Just tap the PF a couple times and you can lose a quarter inch.
BTW, the HB link may not work unless folks copy/paste it in a browser directly, they get all upset when the referrer is CG. You may have to be logged in, too.
dagoat Said:
damn rich. i know you and i were both educated as engineers, but must we be so very much of the same mind? i often don't jump in every time i feel like it's necessary, because i know you will, and that you will give the same advice i would.
anyhow, i'm stunned at the resistance i meet out in other forums when i bring up weighing. the pattern of resistance seems to come in a dumbbell shape--the makeup of two lobes being: "deer in headlights" newbies, and espresso jedi masters who pull so many shots, they just know by using "the force"... or something. for the newbs, weighing is SUPER easy and the scales you need are cheap-- under $20. even if you don't want to weigh every time, a scale is a good diagnostic tool to have in your kit. if you stick with espresso and advance, you WILL encounter times where scales useful to help untie some knot you find yourself in.
btw, lately for the last few months i've been feeling kind of third-wave'y and going ristretto pretty hard. haven't pulled a normale in months. though i have yet to buy a fixie or extract a weight lighter than the cry coffee charge in the puck, i've done plenty at 1:1 through about 1 coffee:1.3 beverage.
here is the guide i use in what to call the drink, based on the ratio of dry coffee to extracted beverage.
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