Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 474 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Thu Nov 8, 2012, 5:19am Subject: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
Okay, so here's the deal. I've gone HX and will never go back to an SBDU, so this I'm not personally invested in this per se. But can someone explain to me why the Silvia is so wildly popular, even though it looks like it requires a clunky PID box to be usable and then costs MORE than the CC1, which has it built in? Also, the CC1 has a thermoblock, which I'm assuming the Silvia does not. I'm NOT trying to start a flame war or dis the Silvia, but I keep seeing that machine recommended over and over and over as a starter machine on this forum when it seems like there's better options in the same price range. Thoughts?
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,671 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Nov 8, 2012, 6:54am Subject: Re: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
WARNING, PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS
I think it has to do with the fact that for a LONG time Sylvia was the best and best priced for value SBDU on the market. This opinion has become engrained but is not true anymore. There are better priced SBDU machines on the market that offer similar build quality and functions. It is kind of like many years ago when personal computers were waring with each other for market share, there was a saying that went something like this from IT departments at the time, " No one ever got fired for buying an IBM", the reasoning behind the statement was there are a lot of machines and operating systems vying for market and the SAFE bet was IBM.
The CC1 is pretty new to the market in the over all view of things and though it offers many advantages over the Sylvia, the old bias still lingers in the form of glowing reviews from years ago, in quantity about the Sylvia and there are not near so many positive reviews about other machines except for places like here where we actively look at new tech, yet there still remains a lot of positive reviews for Sylvia here and not so much about other machines due to the long time that Sylvia has been on the market.
YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,609 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Thu Nov 8, 2012, 2:55pm Subject: Re: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
The overall positive impression people have of the Silvia still originates from the time when it was one of the best SBDUs on the market. It's still a rock solid machine, but unfortunately it hasn't really evolved much. Other machines like the CC1 now offer more advanced features like volumetric dosing, ex factory PID or programmable pre-infusion for the same price range. Their disadvantage is that they haven't been around as long as the Silvia, so they haven't had the opportunity yet to build a reputation like that. However, I'm pretty sure that'll change within the next years.
It's time for Rancilio to really move on with the Silvia.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
qualin Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2012 Posts: 464 Location: Calgary, AB Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3 Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A Vac Pot: Looking to buy Drip: Manual Roaster: Considering?
Posted Thu Nov 8, 2012, 10:58pm Subject: Re: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
I think one of the big factors behind why the Silvia is so popular is because EVERYONE sells these things. I've seen them being sold in Coffee Shops, coffee equipment suppliers, you name it..
Since they are so readily available, it's only natural that people will consider buying one as their first machine.
Also consider that retailers also usually bundle the Rocky and Silvia together as a bundle with a small discount and even sell a shelf for them.
Reading on this site, the Silvia has the most amount of reviews of any espresso machine on the market, their longevity is incredible (From what I've read) and my own personal experience is that this is a machine which is built rock solid. Everything about it, to me, seems like it was very well made.
Of course, I can see a lot of engineering shortcomings. For example, it was the only appliance I've purchased within the last 20 years that didn't have any electronics in it. None. It's all electromechanical. Using multiple thermostats instead of a PID for example. The switches on the front almost resemble crude logic gates, but they're very reliable.
I think that if Rancilio wants to stay competitive, they need to take a good hard long look at Lelit's product line and use that as a starting point. As well, they also need to develop a machine which is somewhere inbetween the Silvia and the Epoca. A new Silvia sells for about $700 here, but a new Epoca is a smidgen over $2000. That's too much of a price gap. I think they could probably benefit by introducing a smaller HX machine with a vibe pump and a reservoir which would be kitchen friendly, selling for somewhere between the $1200-$1600 mark..
The Sylvia was never the best SBDU on the market even when it first came out. There were other machines that were better but the Silvia had the looks (stainless steel was getting popular) and a good price in the US. A few leaders went to the Silva, and the people followed like lemmings.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,671 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012, 6:29am Subject: Re: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
I did not say it was the best period, I said it was the best price for value, check it out in the quote from me you posted. Also, please note this was before the price hikes that pushed it into the NOT value for the money ranks.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012, 6:46pm Subject: Re: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
Best price for value? The big problem with the stock Silvia is its cheap bimetallic thermostats. In the late 80's you were able to get SDBUs with 300 ml boilers and capillary thermostats for maybe $100 more than the Silvia in the US and a similar price to the Silvia in Europe. In the early 90s, you were able get a SBDU with an electronic temperature controller. Not sure of the price when new but I would guess $240 more than the Silvia. ($50 for the temperature controller + $10 for a better boiler) X 4 (for profit). Given the improved performance from replacing the bimetallic thermostats, I would say "best price for value" didn't belong to the Silvia.
I have not used a Silvia so i can only give you the CC1 half the story. For what is worth I think the CC1 does better for milk based drinks than it does for straight shots. Those folks in the market for or just coming out of a super auto right in the CC1's "wheelhouse".
YMMV
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 474 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:35pm Subject: Re: Stupid Question? Silvia vs. Crossland CC1
This is a lot of really interesting insight, kind of shows how an old standard can entrench itself for a long time. When I got into coffee six short months ago, I honestly thought the Silvia was overpriced, and I still do. When one can buy a CC1 for the same price, a Saeco for less than a third, or a Cuadra or Oscar for $250 more, it really seems like the Silvia doesn't really have a spot anymore. Then there's the Gaggias, which cost less than half. It seems to me the Silvia is a good machine that's just been way undercut and needs to be repriced or redesigned to stay competitive.
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