totally agree....and didn't really want to contribute to it, but I guess I did, and about to do more, since you asked "how so?"
For one, I said it seems contradictory] (at least to me)...but you did say a SBDU is "an insufficiently capable tool" and then later on say that in your opinion it's unhealthy (for all the reasons you pointed out) to offer prosumer level machines to beginners/intermediates. To me, this sounded like you were saying that the SBDU is inadequate, but don't buy a prosumer machine unless you're a well-seasoned advanced "barista" (for lack of a better term). If that were the case, then what would be appropriate for a beginner/intermediate user to buy and learn on? Maybe, I misunderstood you, and if so, I'm sorry about that, or maybe you didn't quite say exactly what you meant. I feel these later comments you made in rebuttal to my statement project your opinion better, and appreciate you taking the time to clarify your position.
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 9:15am Subject: Re: What's the best prosumer espresso machine?
totally agree....and didn't really want to contribute to it, but I guess I did, and about to do more, since you asked "how so?"
For one, I said it seems contradictory] (at least to me)...but you did say a SBDU is "an insufficiently capable tool" and then later on say that in your opinion it's unhealthy (for all the reasons you pointed out) to offer prosumer level machines to beginners/intermediates. To me, this sounded like you were saying that the SBDU is inadequate, but don't buy a prosumer machine unless you're a well-seasoned advanced "barista" (for lack of a better term). If that were the case, then what would be appropriate for a beginner/intermediate user to buy and learn on? Maybe, I misunderstood you, and if so, I'm sorry about that, or maybe you didn't quite say exactly what you meant. I feel these later comments you made in rebuttal to my statement project your opinion better, and appreciate you taking the time to clarify your position.
Oh, no. I'm not saying that prosumers are unhealthy in general. My involvement in this discussion started when talk drifted to the "value" of saving for the $2000+ prosumer DBs, which lead to the suggestion that really, you should go $3000+ light commercial or go home. This is what I'm labeling unhealthy.
I personaly would like to see the revival of the vintage Livietta/Maximatic/Coffex HX consumer machine; built to heat up quickly, make a couple of great shots or milk drinks, and do so in a reasonable amount of space. It would be great to see that for $1000...does anyone know what the original price of the Livietta was?
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,716 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 9:49am Subject: Re: What's the best prosumer espresso machine?
I totally get that.
For me, I had to stick to the 2k+ DB because, 1) I wanted a DB rather than a HX (my personal preference for my home and the way I like to work), and 2) I needed something that could be used on reservoir. Although I'd love to have mine plumbed in, there's no plumbing at my "coffee bar" (intended wine bar by the home builder). I've asked the original plumber for an estimate twice, but he's a total flake (though he did come out to the house for a look - just never got the estimate from him), so once I finally get a plumber who's reliable enough to actually give me a written estimate, I can have the work done (put in a sink and plumb-in the machine with an inline pro-grade ion exchange resin softener I have waiting).
Well, unlike with computers -- where no one would reallywant to buy an old used computer (that's five generations old, and still uses 3.5" floppies*) -- with machiens and especially with grinders, buying used can save "beaucoups bucks"!
Cheers, Jason
* Unless, of course, you're a collector of some sort and want to start a museum one day. ;^)
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,317 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:32am Subject: Re: What's the best prosumer espresso machine?
There is a coffee shop going out of business and they are selling what looks to me like a classic faema 2 group with the cool scoop on top and maybe even levers and 2 grinders looks like jollies, all the other coffee shop stuff for less than 10k. It is all I can do not to call and talk to them about that thing.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,671 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 5:52am Subject: Re: What's the best prosumer espresso machine?
Ron Even if the plumber never gets back to you, I am SURE you know you can run your machine as a plumb in via bottles and a pump. Depending on how many drinks you make and the size of the bottles, it will be darn near like it is connected into the house. A few tablespoons of bleach into your waste bottle will keep nasties from growing in there and again depending on use, you might only need to empty every month or so, I get about 3 weeks on a 4 gal waste bottle. I am using a 1/4" refer/icemaker line to run my machine on with no problems so that may be another option for you. Then again a water bottle and pump.... will fit nearly anyplace and it is a HUGE improvement in the whole process when you are not thinking about pour over water tanks and full drip trays. As always, YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,716 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Wed Oct 31, 2012, 6:46am Subject: Re: What's the best prosumer espresso machine?
Thanks Wayne! I thought about that for about 1/2 a second (wife factor). The "coffee bar" in my house is a little wine cubbie off the formal dining room. As such, it's quite visible from the dining table. My wife would go ballistic if I put a 5 gallon jug in the corner (which happens to be not only the only space it woulde fit on the floor in the cubbie, but the most visible part of the cubbie)...not mention the fact that it would prevent me from opening the three drawers right there. Of course, when I do finaly get plumbing there, I'll lose those drawers anyways. One of these days I'll post a photo in the shrines thread, so you can see the area. One of the other reasons I'm so keen on plumbing the area is that I want to have a sink there for washing stuff. It'll be so much better than walking across the dining room and through the butler's pantry into the kitchen. My other idea, which I think is less likely to happen within the next ten years or so, is to build in a nice wet bar in our breakfast area. If I had that to start with, I might have more seriously considered a lever machine instead of the Duetto, and I would have the space for a commercial grinder.
Sadly the water supply will have to be brought over to the coffee bar from under the house, and though I probably could do it myself, I simply don't want to crawl under there and do the labor. The plumber came by to do the walk through, close to when they were repairing a leak near the city's meter (the second leak in the same area). When the main ruptured a third time, I told the guy I was still waiting for his estimate...when I called to complain that 3 leaks in 2 years after the house was built is a problem that I shouldn't have to deal with. They never billed me for the third leak repair, but they never sent the estimate either. So, I'm planning on using the builder's new plumber (as he's no longer using these other clowns).
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