skaman Senior Member Joined: 14 Oct 2012 Posts: 6 Location: b.c. canada Expertise: Just starting
Grinder: mini mazzer
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:11am Subject: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
Hello, brand new to the site - but love good americano/canadiano coffee.
I checked with this site several years ago, and based on what I read, bought the Mazzer Mini grinder that I've been very happy with since.
Now I'm looking for an espresso machine without a grinder to pull a good espresso shot with. I don't need the milk foamer, or a grinder, just a good quality simple machine. Is there such a beast or do the grinder and espresso maker always come together?
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:20am Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
You're lucky, already having a good grinder. No, the espresso machine and grinder don't always come together. With the Mazzer Mini, you've got a grinder that can help you get top results from almost any machine that's capable of pulling a decent shot.
Questions: What kind of drinks do you do (I know you mentioned Americano/Canadiano) and how many in a single session and how many per day? Do you tend to stick with a single coffee or do you switch between different beans and blends on a regular basis? Do you absolutely never do milk drinks or only occasionally? Are you looking for a machine that will last you for a decade+ or just for a few years? What's your budget, generally speaking? How deeply do you want to be involved in the extraction process (complete OCD control-freak level, or closer to grind it, tamp it, push a button and drink what comes out)?
skaman Senior Member Joined: 14 Oct 2012 Posts: 6 Location: b.c. canada Expertise: Just starting
Grinder: mini mazzer
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 2:40pm Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
Right now we use a drip machine to brew anywhere from 4-8 cups at a time..but usually two full americanos at a time is good. When we have guests that would naturally increase to four or eight cups.
We usually stick to one grind/blend, and never have milk drinks (although I wouldn't discount a machine that has that capability). Yes, I tend to prefer quality that will last, and I would hope to be able achieve this for under $1500.00?
As a beginner I'm not too much into the extraction process, (but I am a bit of OCD personality and do enjoy great coffee), so grind it, tamp it and pushing a button has appeal.
Thanks for the reply and any insights you can provide given my somewhat limited experience is appreciated.
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 4:50pm Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
$1500 gives you a fair amount of leeway, and if you're considering the used market, a huge potential if you're patient and get educated in what to look for. Personally, I have a tendency to look for used, as it's a way to get a higher level machine for what I have to spend. Then again, I'm willing to tinker with stuff to make it work (although that can get a little strange sometimes, as with my current HX machine). At this point, I'll let people who have direct experience with different machines take over, since that will probably be more germane that any theorizing I can do.
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,100 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 5:12pm Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
skaman Said:
Now I'm looking for an espresso machine without a grinder to pull a good espresso shot with. I don't need the milk foamer, or a grinder, just a good quality simple machine. Is there such a beast or do the grinder and espresso maker always come together?
Only the BAD espresso machines come with a built-in grinder. In other words, no machine you'd actually like to buy comes with a built-in grinder.
Before anyone can really make any worthy suggestions for you to look at, there are the Standard Questions that need answers. (Remember: the more specific you can be, the more specific we can be!)
Standard Questions: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir? 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? 6) What is your budget for a new machine?
skaman Said:
-- Right now we use a drip machine to brew anywhere from 4-8 cups at a time..but usually two full americanos at a time is good. When we have guests that would naturally increase to four or eight cups. -- We usually stick to one grind/blend, and never have milk drinks (although I wouldn't discount a machine that has that capability). -- Yes, I tend to prefer quality that will last, and I would hope to be able achieve this for under $1500.00? -- As a beginner I'm not too much into the extraction process, (but I am a bit of OCD personality and do enjoy great coffee), so grind it, tamp it and pushing a button has appeal.
Are you familiar with the different types of espresso machines? Even of you think you are, I would strongly advise that you take a few moments to read THIS post.
It isn't a matter of not being "into the extraction process," as you put it, but rather having a desire to drink great coffee. I would suggest you look at either semi-automatic or volumetrically dosed, full-automatic machines, and avoid the mediocre super-autos.
qualin Senior Member Joined: 30 Jun 2012 Posts: 495 Location: Calgary, AB Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3 Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A Vac Pot: Looking to buy Drip: Manual Roaster: Considering?
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 8:10pm Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
For $1500 new, you are probably into the lower to mid end of Heat Exchanging Semi-Automatic machines, which isn't a bad thing.
Something like the Bezzera Magica would probably much do everything you need and then some if you want to use a machine with a vibratory pump and reservoir, which should be adequate for your drink volumes. It's $100 over your budget, but having a true E61 group makes the machine a bit more serviceable. Alternatively, you could consider the La Cuadra Nuova. which isn't as well known as the Bezzera, but they're a good starter HX machine for the money, from what I've heard. I was tempted to upgrade to one of these to replace my Silvia because they're nearly blowing them out.. the problem is, nobody where I live will service them. :-(
From my point of view, there are a lot of heat exchanging machines in the prosumer class which are in the $900-$2000 range. There is only one double boiler machine which is below the $2000 mark and it's reliability is still in question, that is the Breville Double Boiler. Can I recommend it? I have no idea because I haven't owned one yet. There was a huge thread on here about them and supposedly they have rock solid temperature stability. The one huge drawback to these machines is that you have to send them off to a Breville service depot to get them descaled because the machine will lock you out until the service is done. Well, you do get what you pay for I guess.
The other question I have.. How much upgradeitis do you want to suffer through? :-)
Markarian Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 475 Location: Seattle Area Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Modded Nuova Simonelli Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Moka, Aeropress, Melitta 102 Roaster: Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 11:20pm Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
I guess I could throw in my recommendation for the Oscar. It still keeps on going, and has tolerated years of abuse from a former owner. It's not a shiny metal cube (is there a name for this class of home machine?) but it gets the job done. $1500 does give you a bit more room to play with, though.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,661 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Mon Oct 15, 2012, 3:29am Subject: Re: which espresso maker to buy without grinder
skaman Said:
... As a beginner I'm not too much into the extraction process, (but I am a bit of OCD personality and do enjoy great coffee), so grind it, tamp it and pushing a button has appeal ...
Well, as long as you want to make good espresso for your americanos, and you should, you'll have to look into getting extraction right, which basically means getting a grip on grinding with just the right fineness, and dosing and tamping consistently. As far as just pushing a button is concerned, you can look into automatic espresso machines, i.e. machines that use volumetric dosage like the Bezzera BZ07 DE, for example.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
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