Posted Wed Oct 3, 2012, 6:30pm Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
If the "major dealer we all would recognize" is one of the site sponsors, at the very least, somebody a little higher up in the organization should know that one of their salespersons is either a) less knowledgeable than the job requires, or b) (and less charitably) deliberately misleading customers to maybe push a slower selling item or one that he gets more of a "spiff" for selling. Either way, he doesn't serve his employer well.
In answer to your question, yes, any HX machine should be able to do both at the same time, and certainly any HX machine that can't steam hard on the heels of pulling a shot is very poorly designed.
DeanOK Senior Member Joined: 24 Sep 2012 Posts: 161 Location: OK Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Vario W
Posted Wed Oct 3, 2012, 6:52pm Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
I didn't really start this thread to beat up on the dealer..... being self employed myself, I know a lot of time your staff does not do things the way you want them done. I didn't get the person's name anyway, so I probably couldn't offer the principal much help because it is doubtful the person would spring forward to fess up that they were the one that I was talking to.
I started this thread to make sure I understood how a HX system worked after I got information that I felt might not be accurate. Got a lot of good info...thank you to all of you!
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 1:44am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
DeanOK Said:
I probably would not make coffee and steam milk at the same time, I think it would save time if I could start steaming milk as soon as the shot was done. I figure over a period of years, it would be worth the convenience. I never had the ability to steam and make coffee in the past with the machines I have owned and the time I have waited to steam milk is definitely not a good thing.
Ah, well that's different from doing the tasks simultaneously, and it's what most folk probably want to be able to do. I'm sure that any HX or dual boiler machine will let you do it. That is one of their major advantages.
The reason you can't brew and steam simultaneously on some dual boiler machines is because the hydraulic design doesn't allow it.
Generally, I'm leaving the shot(s) to pull while getting the jug ready, and the milk out of the fridge.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 5:19am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
The first thought I had when reading your original post is "depends on who you ask".
I have tested for myself from the results in the cup many times of steaming during a pull or seperately and 85% of the time there is no difference to me. The 15% of the time there is a difference is when the pump needs to fill the boiler during a shot pull, this results in less pressure going to the puck while the boiler fills and the shot flow suffers and so does the taste. There is no guarantee that if just pulling a shot that my boiler won't decide to fill but the odds go up if I am steaming at the same time. I do not feel my shot is ruined by loosing some pressure during the shot but it definitely looses some flavor compared to when it doesn't happen.
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 704 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 5:49am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
germantownrob Said:
The first thought I had when reading your original post is "depends on who you ask".
I have tested for myself from the results in the cup many times of steaming during a pull or seperately and 85% of the time there is no difference to me. The 15% of the time there is a difference is when the pump needs to fill the boiler during a shot pull, this results in less pressure going to the puck while the boiler fills and the shot flow suffers and so does the taste. There is no guarantee that if just pulling a shot that my boiler won't decide to fill but the odds go up if I am steaming at the same time. I do not feel my shot is ruined by loosing some pressure during the shot but it definitely looses some flavor compared to when it doesn't happen.
"Depends on the HX machine they are using" and the "depends on who you ask" probably "depends on what want to sell you" :) Not that you need me to prop you but great answer Rob. I would think your money is better spent on a mid-grade prosumer HX than an entry level DB. In other words for DB I would be thinking Rocket, Alex, GS3 (different level all together I know) or be perfectly content with a nice HX like a Rocket Cellini Plus. YGMV
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 7:23am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
DeanOK Said:
I didn't really start this thread to beat up on the dealer..... being self employed myself, I know a lot of time your staff does not do things the way you want them done. I didn't get the person's name anyway, so I probably couldn't offer the principal much help because it is doubtful the person would spring forward to fess up that they were the one that I was talking to.
Totally understand your reasoning. The principals of several of the online retailers we all use and respect visit this site frequently, and I know from past experience, they appreciate us telling them when we notice a problem with one or more of their employees. By not naming names you make it more difficult for them to address the issues. If you were to simply withhold the name of the employee (which you don't know anyways) they can address their entire staff without singling any one out, and that might be very helpful to them.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 7:53am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
emradguy Said:
Totally understand your reasoning. The principals of several of the online retailers we all use and respect visit this site frequently, and I know from past experience, they appreciate us telling them when we notice a problem with one or more of their employees. By not naming names you make it more difficult for them to address the issues. If you were to simply withhold the name of the employee (which you don't know anyways) they can address their entire staff without singling any one out, and that might be very helpful to them.
Then a phone call to the owner and a private discussion is probably the best way to handle this but hatching it out online never seems to work very well. If Dean had made any critical statements against a vendor as a "Junior Member" he might very well be breaking the last rule listed at the bottom of every page and even for senior members this does not go well usually. IMHO I think Dean has done a great job of getting the info he needs to make an informed decision.
Besides are you willing to put up the argument that a HX machine makes its best shots while steaming milk at the same time? Posters in this thread seem to be split as to how well this works. To expand on my previous post as to steaming while pulling a shot, if I am pulling a shot to drink I would not steam 10oz of milk for a hot chocolate at the same time on my machine but steaming 4 oz of milk in under 20 sec does not change things significantly enough for a milk based drink IMO to not do it simultaneously.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,723 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 8:09am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
good points, Rob...and in fact, I got distracted, so I apologize for not finishing what I had intended to write. I had planned on ending my post with a recommendation to try to contact the owner/manager through their website. I also should apologize for submitting the post before I got the chance to read it over (I probably would have noticed I left off the end).
Having said that, there was a thread a while back, you may have even participated in it, where people were asked to chime in about online retailer experiences/quality. In it, I had mentioned a very bad experience I got from one of the vendor's customer service department and that a friend had a similar experience. The owner replied in the thread that his problem had been taken care of and that he appreciated the feedback. I have returned to that retailer since and the service has definitely returned to what it had been before the couple of incidents (that is, excellent). Anyhow, I do agree wholeheartedly, that in most instances, these things shouldn't be aired in the public forums...so again, I apologize for not stating that in my prior post.
Regarding HX performance, I can only go by what I've read here, as I went from SBDU to DB. You certainly are experienced enough with HX to know it's limitations first hand. I can recall posts from a couple/few of the guys here with 1,000+ posts talking about one of the advantages of HX being the ability to froth and extract simultaneously. I think even with the corollary...[otherwise, you are using it like an SBDU].
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 9:00am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
emradguy Said:
Having said that, there was a thread a while back, you may have even participated in it, where people were asked to chime in about online retailer experiences/quality. In it, I had mentioned a very bad experience I got from one of the vendor's customer service department and that a friend had a similar experience. The owner replied in the thread that his problem had been taken care of and that he appreciated the feedback. I have returned to that retailer since and the service has definitely returned to what it had been before the couple of incidents (that is, excellent). Anyhow, I do agree wholeheartedly, that in most instances, these things shouldn't be aired in the public forums...so again, I apologize for not stating that in my prior post.
Regarding HX performance, I can only go by what I've read here, as I went from SBDU to DB. You certainly are experienced enough with HX to know it's limitations first hand. I can recall posts from a couple/few of the guys here with 1,000+ posts talking about one of the advantages of HX being the ability to froth and extract simultaneously. I think even with the corollary...[otherwise, you are using it like an SBDU].
That is a good thread, I agree that info passed on about vendors is very valuable and it has been shown numerous times that vendors benefit from these exchanges, it is nice when that happens.
I agree that HX can froth while extracting simultaneously but the nature of an HX machine means that there can be trade offs to doing this but to say a HX can't froth and extract at the same time would be simply incorrect.
DeanOK Senior Member Joined: 24 Sep 2012 Posts: 161 Location: OK Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Oct 4, 2012, 9:05am Subject: Re: HX vs Dual Boiler advice I got today... now I have a question
I would not mention the company's name here. If I felt like pursuing the issue, I would call them on the phone and ask for the manger.
One of the businesses I own is a web based business and we too have a forum that we operate to support our customers. It has about 7,000 members, so much smaller than this community. I am not going to provide more information about my business because I prefer to be somewhat anonymous here, but it is in a totally different business than coffee. We do not allow members of our forum to make "consumer complaints" about any company. If they do, we will sometimes overwrite the the company name in the post with X's and footnote the post as to why an admin edited it, or we delete their post entirely. We feel like we are there to support a product and we are NOT a place to lodge consumer complaints. There is web sites and other resources for that (such as the BBB) and we keep our forum 100% to support our product.
With that said, if I started making critical remarks about a specific company his this forum I would expect it to be deleted or edited and if I didn't get the hint and kept doing it, I would expect my account to be locked.
I feel like the company I talked to is a good company and I would still buy from them. I probably would prefer to work with a different sales person though. The rest of the story is that if that particular sales person deals with very many callers the way they dealt with me, the owner will find out soon enough. Lets hope they were just having a bad day.
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