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Buying a new machine, R58? Duetto?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Buying a new...  
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 620
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Sun Sep 30, 2012, 5:27pm
Subject: Buying a new machine, R58? Duetto?
 

Hello all,
Im caught between three machines, not sure which to go with.

Things that are important to me:
  • PID
  • dual boiler
  • Pre-infusion
  • e61

So I have narrowed it down to three machines:
Im nervous about the Brewtus because of the 1 hole steam tip, the limited amount of information, the size of the boilers and power(2x1.8L).
Im nervous about the Duetto because of its proportions, an the low portafilter clearance on the machine.
Im nervous about the R58 because of the remote PID, its "newness."

I am still shopping around, but I hope to order by Wednesday this week. Does anyone have any ideas?


Edit 1/10/12:

for Rocket owners, I notice that the steam arm doesnt get very close to the drip tray, and that the 3-way relief valve is about an inch above the tray as well. Does this make a significant mess when clearing your wand and pulling a shot? How do you feel about the PID in terms of interface, and effects on shot temp?

For Duetto Owners, Im hearing mixed opinions about the pre-infusion, is it there (newer model v. old model)? How happy are you with the portafilter, do any of you use a rocket style double spouted PF? How is the clearance under the machine?


What about adjusting pressure in the steam boiler, is this through increasing temperature, or is there some other pressure mechanism?

Does anybody know if these PID's reflect the temperature offset for the e61?
Do they all come as 15amp?
What is the recovery time like on these machines? What about steam power?

Can somebody tell me if the height measurements include the cup rail, or if they are to the top of the sides? I have a clearance of 17.5in under my cabinets, and I would like to store cups on my machine. I think this rules out the brewtus (which I was turning away from anyway) but it does leave me guessing on the other two.

Edit 4/10/12:
I picked up a brewtus iv-p, my first impressions are at the bottom of this thread.

 
Anthony C

Currently pulling:
Path Coffee Roasters (PortChester, NY) Feather in cap espresso.

Cold Brewing:
Gimme! (ithaca, NY) Moca Java

http://coffeeandneuroscience.wordpress.com/
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,398
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Sep 30, 2012, 5:53pm
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

Amy, I can't give you any advice based upon actually using ANY of these machines, bt that's never stopped me in the past -- why let it now?

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people are/have been very happy with their Brewtus.  I had a weird (read "not good") experience with an Expobar -- not a Brewtus! -- and so I'm hesitant, but that doesn't mean you should be.

that said, I'm a very satisfied customer of Chris' Coffee, and so either the Rocket or the Alex Duetto would be my choices . . . probably the Alex, but that's based solely on the fact it's been around a bit.  I wouldn't hesitate to call Chris' Coffee, talk with Chris or Mary and ask them about the pros and cons between those two.

Cheers,
Jason

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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Bgosselin
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 51
Location: Canada,quebec
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun Sep 30, 2012, 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

I think you can't go wrong with any of those machines.  Best if you can buy them close to you.  Chris Coffee had some issues with the Rocket R58 delivery.  It get damage during transport.  I bought mine locally and have nothing to complain about.  I like the fact that the PID is removable.  It give a cleaner look and personally I won't play with it often.  I don't change my type of coffee so I won't play with the brew temp on a daily basis.  I was disappointed with the steam performance at first buy after increasing the service boiler temperature I'm now very impress with it's steam capability.  I bought a 4 holes steam tip and would like to experiment with it in the future.  I could them make a direct comparison with my mini-vivaldi I have at home.

I chose the R58 over the Duetto for it's look and the size. The Duetto is a bit bigger.  Not much but still.  I didn't know about the Brewtus then.  It seem like a solid performer.
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randychar813
Senior Member
randychar813
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Louisiana
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: 95% of time: Izzo Alex...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E type A;...
Vac Pot: french press
Drip: no
Roaster: SF 6 lber; Hottop
Posted Sun Sep 30, 2012, 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

I bought an IAD 2in 1/2012 and have not looked back.  Your concern about the PID pigtail are mine as well.  What good is a PID that you can not readily see to use.  I think the aesthetics of the IAD are nicer and the double case ensures less heat transfer off the walls and up thru rhe cup warmer.  The Brewtus was never in the running for me.  Any way that is my experience as an IAD2 owner.

What did you buy if you bought?
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 857
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Sun Sep 30, 2012, 6:25pm
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

Duetto, I have run mine 6am to 10pm every day both boilers no less 10 doubles a day on average 0 problems. Love Chris's regardless of what you do.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,124
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Mon Oct 1, 2012, 9:49am
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

acasabia Said:

Im caught between three machines, not sure which to go with.

Things that are important to me:
PID
dual boiler
Pre-infusion
e61

So I have narrowed it down to three machines:
Rocket R58
Izzo Alex Duetto II
Expobar Brewtus

Im nervous about the Brewtus because of the 1 hole steam tip, the limited amount of information, the size of the boilers and power(2x1.8L).
Im nervous about the Duetto because of its proportions, an the low portafilter clearance on the machine.
Im nervous about the R58 because of the remote PID, its "newness."

What about adjusting pressure in the steam boiler, is this through increasing temperature, or is there some other pressure mechanism?

Does anybody know if these PID's reflect the temperature offset for the e61?
Do they all come as 15amp?
What is the recovery time like on these machines? What about steam power?

I am still shopping around, but I hope to order by Wednesday this week. Does anyone have any ideas?

Posted September 30, 2012 link

I can mostly speak on the Duetto, which I own.  According to Chris the PID does account for the offset at the group, and for this reason, Chris told me not to buy an E61 thermometer.  

Duetto does not preinfuse unless plumbed (that's my understanding at least)

Duetto can operate in 15 amp mode, and in fact comes that way from Chris'.

Duetto recovery time is insignificant.  I had 20 people at my house this past weekend and made about 7 cappas and lattes back to back without a hitch.  Steam boiler recovers in about 10-15 seconds, I'd guess.  You can adjust pressure by changing the set boiler temp through the PID programming function and it's very easy.  Group pressure is set by opening the machine and adjusting a screw.

For Duetto steam power and quality, I highly recommend taking the plastic tube out of the wand and putting a heat shield on the outside, so you can manipulate it without burning your fingers.  You can buy a rubber shield for less than $10 from espressoparts.

I wouldn't worry about the one hole tip on the Brewtus, there are many options for upgrading/modifying wands and tips.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 620
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:25am
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

emradguy Said:

I can mostly speak on the Duetto, which I own.  According to Chris the PID does account for the offset at the group, and for this reason, Chris told me not to buy an E61 thermometer.  

Duetto does not preinfuse unless plumbed (that's my understanding at least)

Duetto can operate in 15 amp mode, and in fact comes that way from Chris'.

Duetto recovery time is insignificant.  I had 20 people at my house this past weekend and made about 7 cappas and lattes back to back without a hitch.  Steam boiler recovers in about 10-15 seconds, I'd guess.  You can adjust pressure by changing the set boiler temp through the PID programming function and it's very easy.  Group pressure is set by opening the machine and adjusting a screw.

For Duetto steam power and quality, I highly recommend taking the plastic tube out of the wand and putting a heat shield on the outside, so you can manipulate it without burning your fingers.  You can buy a rubber shield for less than $10 from espressoparts.

I wouldn't worry about the one hole tip on the Brewtus, there are many options for upgrading/modifying wands and tips.

Posted October 1, 2012 link

Are you using the new version of the duetto? (big knobs, no-burn steam and water wands)

 
Anthony C

Currently pulling:
Path Coffee Roasters (PortChester, NY) Feather in cap espresso.

Cold Brewing:
Gimme! (ithaca, NY) Moca Java

http://coffeeandneuroscience.wordpress.com/
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 620
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:35am
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

for Rocket owners, I notice that the steam arm doesnt get very close to the drip tray, and that the 3-way relief valve is about an inch above the tray as well. Does this make a significant mess when clearing your wand and pulling a shot? How do you feel about the PID in terms of interface, and effects on shot temp?

For Duetto Owners, Im hearing mixed opinions about the pre-infusion, is it there (newer model v. old model)? How happy are you with the portafilter, do any of you use a rocket style double spouted PF? How is the clearance under the machine?

Can somebody tell me if the height measurements include the cup rail, or if they are to the top of the sides? I have a clearance of 17.5in under my cabinets, and I would like to store cups on my machine. I think this rules out the brewtus (which I was turning away from anyway) but it does leave me guessing on the other two.

 
Anthony C

Currently pulling:
Path Coffee Roasters (PortChester, NY) Feather in cap espresso.

Cold Brewing:
Gimme! (ithaca, NY) Moca Java

http://coffeeandneuroscience.wordpress.com/
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,124
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:45am
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

acasabia Said:

Are you using the new version of the duetto? (big knobs, no-burn steam and water wands)

Posted October 1, 2012 link

Yeah, I have the new version (I got mine in December 2012).  I converted my steam wand to "burn-me" type and got a HUGE improvement in steam quality.  Again, if you do this, you'll need to pick up a little rubber 10mm sleeve. If you have the profile pics displayed on the left under each person's name, mine has my custom knob, lever and pf handle set I bought from Dave Stephens.

clearance under the machine is about an inch or so.

I think my cabinets are 17 3/4 inches. My latte cups fit under the counter just fine on the cup warmer.  I have these stainless Frabosk ones from 1st-line...http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/eg/cups/Frabosk.htm

I'll try to post a photo later (no guarantees though).

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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acasabia
Senior Member
acasabia
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 620
Location: Westchester, NY
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus iv-p,...
Grinder: Quamar M80e, Hario slim
Vac Pot: Yama Vacpot, Aeropress,
Drip: french press
Roaster: hot-air popper.
Posted Mon Oct 1, 2012, 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Buying a new machine, down to 3
 

emradguy Said:

Yeah, I have the new version (I got mine in December 2012).  I converted my steam wand to "burn-me" type and got a HUGE improvement in steam quality.  Again, if you do this, you'll need to pick up a little rubber 10mm sleeve. If you have the profile pics displayed on the left under each person's name, mine has my custom knob, lever and pf handle set I bought from Dave Stephens.

clearance under the machine is about an inch or so.

I think my cabinets are 17 3/4 inches. My latte cups fit under the counter just fine on the cup warmer.  I have these stainless Frabosk ones from 1st-line...http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/eg/cups/Frabosk.htm

I'll try to post a photo later (no guarantees though).

Posted October 1, 2012 link

Okay, good to hear. For the PF, did you keep the same spouts or did you change to a rocket style spout? It's purely cosmetic, but I like the way they split.

 
Anthony C

Currently pulling:
Path Coffee Roasters (PortChester, NY) Feather in cap espresso.

Cold Brewing:
Gimme! (ithaca, NY) Moca Java

http://coffeeandneuroscience.wordpress.com/
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