Posted Sun Jul 22, 2012, 7:25am Subject: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
Which one would you buy mainly for espresso & steam 4-8 ounces milk 3-6 times a week ?
Expobar Brewtus 4 vibe with 1250 watt 1.8L boilers PID equipped but uses a press stat (tend to go bad) for the steam boiler Steam has been reported to be slower than comparable machines Espressso has been said to be very good Smaller footprint Service from only one vendor with reports of so so parts avail/service
Quickmill 67 vibe, .75L brew and .85L steam 1400watt boiler, smaller but higher wattage could mean better recovery Dual PID, uses no press stat Smaller footprint New machine on the market with no track record Vendor parts/service normally well regarded
The Alex is to big and the Spaz are 53mm so those are out.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,642 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:33am Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
Buy the one you like the looks of best.
P stats are not a big deal, I have been using machines with them for years without any sign of an issue. My personal opinion is that a big deal is made of them wearing out to justify adding a PID to a machine that really will not gain any benefit from having one (such as on a HX machine)..... a gimmick.
That is not to say that a PID is of no value, or that a P stat can not wear out, that is not true at all, PIDs when used in the proper place like on a DB or SBDU machine they do affect and make a very positive improvement in the quality and temp of the water but on a machine like a HX, in my personal opinion they are a gimmick.
From wikipedia In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature. It began, however, as a slang term for something that a con artist or magician had his assistant manipulate to make appearances different from reality. Such things as the manipulating of a gaming wheel led to the idea of a "gimmick" being used.
Yes I know your question is on DB machines, but as you mentioned the Pstat wearing out as an issue, I really felt the need to "defend" them.
Sorry if any offense was taken by anyone.
Back to your question, this is a personal decision like I said above and what I have often said is to sit down and make a list of your desired features without any machine in mind, then shop the market place to find the machine that best fits your needs. YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,642 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Mon Jul 23, 2012, 2:05pm Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
Only you can say what features are important and not important to you. Not that one is better than the other.
Without having ANY machine in mind, make out a list of what you want in a machine. Then compare your list to these specs (you are not limited to these two machines but they are the ones you referenced.)
They both should do a great job for you. My personal preference when looking at this class of machine is for plumb in and volumetric dosing (if possible) Both features make use of the machine much easier even if you need to run an external water bottle for both water supply and drainThose are things that I look for and are important to ME so neither of these machines would be on MY list! YMMV!
From WLL http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/exbrew_4.cfm Expobar Brewtus IV with Vibration Pump Specifications Housing Housing Material Stainless Steel Drip Tray Stainless Steel Drip Tray Cover Stainless Steel Boiler Data Material Copper Wattage 1250 @ 125v Volume 1.7 each Boiler (2 Boilers) Brew Group Data Material Brass Chrome Plated Pump Data Type Vibration Maximum Pressure 16 Pump Wattage 47 Brewing Pressure 8-9 bars Controls Switches lever Programmable No Auto-Extraction no Pre-Infusion yes Ready Lights LCD display w/pressure Thermostats PID Brew Temp & Pressure Back Pressure Relief Valve yes Burn Out Protection 2 Manula reset high temperature Cup Warmer Size 10x10 Passive/Active Passive Portafilter Data Type Commercial Material Chrome Plated Brass Handle Plastic Weight 16 oz Diameter 58 mm Filter Basket Material Stainless Steel Filter Baskets Included Single & double shot
High-quality stainless steel construction #304 E-61 commercial group Cup warmer Hinged cover - No need to remove the cup warming tray to refill the water tank Easy access expansion valve - No need to remove the outer shell to adjust PID controller for the group boiler (with 1.0 degree Celsius or Fahrenheit adjustment) PID controller also controls the steam boiler temperature (and thus pressure) Programmable offset differential Boiler pressure gauge Group pressure gauge Power and heater lights Power switches for the coffee and steam boiler Stainless steel steam and hot water arms 1.0mm two hole steam tip Large pull-out stainless drip tray Water reservoir Dual insulated copper boilers Ulka 52 watt vibratory pump with thermal overload protection Pulsor equipped to the pump, equalizing pump pressure and improves noiselessness Resettable hi-limit to protect the heating element High-quality expansion valve for easy adjustment of brew pressure Easy-to-remove outer shell makes for easy service if necessary Control board and transformer Low water sensors 15 amp Complete downloadable User Manual
Dimensions & Specifications Model Width Depth Height Steam Boiler Capacity Steam Boiler Heater Size Group Boiler Capacity Group Boiler Heater Size Voltage Amperage Weight Dual Boiler QM67 11" 17" 15 1/2" .80 Liters 1400 watts .75 Liters 800 watts 110 volt 15 amp 50 lbs
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
nhokt Senior Member Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Posts: 22 Location: MA USA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: QM67 Grinder: Vario
Posted Sun Jul 29, 2012, 8:30pm Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
I appear to be in the exact same spot as you, choosing between the Brewtus IV and QM67.
I have a small spot current occupied by my PID'd Silvia and both of these machines are fairly small in size. Hoping some others can chime in with thoughts.
Posted Mon Jul 30, 2012, 6:27am Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
It seems that getting a DB to work right has taken some experimentation and iteration. It is not clear that QuickMill and Rocket have done that before introduction.
Right now, I would recommend getting a DB that has been on the market for more than a year.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,642 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Mon Jul 30, 2012, 9:12am Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
I must politely take exception to the above. There is no magic in making a DB machine and both the manufacturers have been making espresso machines for a LONG time, I would not hesitate to purchase either of these machines if they were what I was looking for.
If either manufacturer had a history of producing low quality machines, then concern is warranted such as in the case of Brevelle but even with them, the track record so far has been more positive than negative so while I can not give two thumbs up on the BDB... yet, ECM, Rockett, Quickmill and Expobar make quality products and I would be extremely supprised if a DB machine from them would have any issues.
YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:20am Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
I would trust both brands BUT I think it is a good point that they just came out with that DB. I think it is important he is made aware he would be getting a new model and not a design they have made forever. There may yet be bugs to work out.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
Posted Mon Jul 30, 2012, 9:42pm Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
I would also like to add in addition to the manufacturers build quality history, the reputation of the resellers that are selling the QM67 have been proven to stand behind there products so I think as long as you feel comfortable and have a good relationship with your chosen vendor, they will support you with any problem you have. Not many consumer appliances come with a two year warranty so i think that shows a lot how much they believe in their products.
I bought my CC1 knowing there was not many on the market, but having a guy like Bill Crossland standing behind his product I was comfortable with my purchase and found out I was correct in my decision when he helped me out personally with a emergency parts order to get me up and running in time for some special guests I was expecting. I love how this community is so tight and helpful to each other and has drawn me even closer to coffee as a hobby.
Posted Tue Jul 31, 2012, 5:18pm Subject: Re: Machine recommendation: Expobar DB Brewtus 4 or Quickmill DB 67
I am not talking about reputaton for manufacturer quality or about supplier support. Those matter and they are worth considering.
The heat management and water flow characteristics of a PID-controlled brew boiler is very different than what goes on in a heat exchanger or a thermostat-controlled SBDU. The Vibiemme and Expobar (and I think the Izzo and GS3) have needed design tweaks after experience was gained from extended use of the initial designs. The Breville DB also underwent extended design reviewsbandbtweaks prior to worldwide release. These are not just opinions.
I am suggesting based on these facts that the likelihood of the new crop of DBs also needing some tweaks after a v1 design is fairly high. If one makes an educated decision based on awareness of the risk then no problem. I bought a VBM DB v2 and had fun tweaking it myself to address the design shortcomings. If one wants to reduce that risk then they will buy a proven (and already tweaked) design.
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