Sashas Senior Member Joined: 2 Nov 2011 Posts: 19 Location: Vancouver, BC Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2012, 6:06pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
Well people who don't have time and patience to grind /clean/tamp/clean/pull/clean/drink/clean actions don't have time for forums either. So no, there is no such a thing as super-auto forum because there's simply no need for it.
MARIOBARBA Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Posts: 126 Location: MONTREAL CANADA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso DUO Prof TRONIC Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2012, 6:38pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
Get a Nespresso. It will give you an espresso like drink for way cheaper than what you're looking at and when you decide to start making real espresso at home it will be easier to chuck in the garbage.
Both miele and gagennau are supposed to be top of the line in appliances in hefty prices, so it not unthinkable that they might provide an acceptable espresso machine.
"Unthinkable"? No, it isn't unthinkable. But it is unlikely, indeed impossible, to get a great shot from a super-automatic, regardless of price, regardless of reputation. Oh, wait. It seems I was operating under a misconception: you aren't interested in great espresso; you are interested in "an acceptable espresso machine." That clearly depends upon your palate: a Miel may be acceptable in your eyes. I wouldn't buy one if they were $100.
Damat101 Said:
I know that I can probabbly get better shots with a grinder and a saeco for example . . .
The fact that you know that you can produce better shots with "a grinder and a saeco" -- and it isn't as if Saeco makes outstanding machines, after all -- tells me that you already know (or at least admit to yourself) that super-autos don't make very good espresso.
Damat101 Said:
I'm a superauto fan as I mentioned, and take it as a fact that Im asking for build in machines only.
Oh, I take it as fact that you want a super-automatic, and that you are interested in buying a built-in machine only. While I hesitate to speak for anyone else here, I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that, too. What most of us do not understand, of course, is why.
Sorry. But there are very good reasons why few people here are fans of super-automatics.
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:36pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
There are certainly a lot of super-auto machines out there in many forms. Only a few built in machines. But let's just group them together and theorize as to why they are rarely mentioned here or on other groups. People who generally buy super autos are not interested in finding a way to make the absolutely best espresso they can. They are interested in making an acceptable beverage as easily as possible. Why would they come to such sites as "Coffee Geek " or Home Barista? It would generally be a waste of time talking to people who spend more on their grinders than some super auto machines cost. A generality, to be sure, but it illustrates the point. No one has ever asked is putting a PID on their Saeco super auto would improve its performance, and to the best of my knowledge Greg Scace has never been approached to build a Scace Device for a Delonghi super auto. It's two different worlds that rarely cross paths.
It gets worse when you step into the pointy end of super autos - the built ins. Few are available, and I have only seen them discussed in coffee forums maybe two or three times in over 11 years. Not to be insulting to the OP, but anyone considering one probably just has too much money. Are they standardized in size? If not, if it fails you have to replace it with another of its kind. If it has to be serviced, it has to be removed. Call the guy. Then stare at the hole in the cabinet for a month till it is returned. Or just but two, just in case? These sorts of folks with two Mercedes and a Ferrari parked in the garage don't associate with folks like us me. Hell... MY motherinlaw doesn't even talk to me (no tears - it's a good thing).
So if Starbucks beverages are acceptable to you, a super auto probably will be as well- at least a good one might be. For the vast majority of folks here, we can easily match or beat a super auto on a bad day. The rest of the time we just giggle at the thought of owning one.
Nothing personal. They don't call us geeks for nothing.
"Tough crowd.. what a tough crowd {tugs on tie}. I'll tell ya.. I asked my wife to make me a cup of coffee.. she poured boiling water down my pants.. I'm telling ya, I get no respect."
Damat101 Senior Member Joined: 21 Apr 2012 Posts: 8 Location: GREECe Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:28pm Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
Thank you all again for your time -and especially frcn for taking the time to explain the general outcry at the initial post.
So I realize that the answer is Don't Get One!
let me then rephrase the question in the hope that someone still has the will to offer advice on getting a non superauto.
Or to be more clear let me state the all the facts in detail:
I don't want to have anything on the kitchen counter. Unless it's something of an eye-candy the system will have to remain fitted in a tray. That means it has to fit in a 80x60x80 cm. I don't want to go to the garage to make a coffe or anywhere else. It has to be in the kitchen.
I have three kids, all three below 6 years old and I'm usually in a rush and especially in the morning. It has to be user friendly. I'm not above being a bit geekish about my coffee but I'm willing to settle for less than the godshot, and I still dont find Starbucks acceptable.
I m not rich, but I'm building a house right now, and I'm not againts spending some money for something worthwhile.
I live in Crete Greece, so I don't have access to speciality stores. I do have access to professional equipment ( I had a FEMA and a Masser grind borrowed for some time but I never made it count that much).
The house will have installed a central water treatment system, descaling, purifying etch. Plus we don't usually drink water form the mains.
That's it. any ideas anyone in what combination I should get?
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2012, 7:41am Subject: Re: Advice for getting a build-in-kitchen espresso machine please?
Without knowing the overall design of the house, nor what is common/uncommon features for a new house being built in Crete, please take everything with a grain of salt . . .
Damat101 Said:
I don't want to have anything on the kitchen counter . . . I don't want to go to the garage to make a coffe or anywhere else. It has to be in the kitchen.
Not all of us have our espresso machines in our kitchen, and few (if any) of us go into the garage. Some have them set up in a dedicated espresso "area" -- for example, in a corner somewhere out of the way of the working areas of the kitchen (i.e.: countertops and food prep areas); some have them set up on a steel or wooden table in the breakfast room, or even the den; some have them as part of a wet bar . . . I even know of one person who has their setup upstairs in the Master Bedroom! So the requirement that you "don't want to have anything on the kitchen counter" is not out of the question.
Damat101 Said:
Unless it's something of an eye-candy the system will have to remain fitted in a tray. That means it has to fit in a 80x60x80 cm.(approximately 32"x24"x32")
That said, "eye candy" is in the eye of the beholder. My wife loves the way my espresso machine looks, and gladly "sacrificed" some counter space for it. (See below.) Every situation is different . . . But I'm a bit confused by one thing: what kind of tray?
Damat101 Said:
I have three kids, all three below 6 years old and I'm usually in a rush and especially in the morning. It has to be user friendly. I'm not above being a bit geekish about my coffee but I'm willing to settle for less than the godshot, and I still dont find Starbucks acceptable.
All of us "settle for less than a godshot," in that never is every shot we pull a god shot -- so let's not worry about that. Ditto for *$.
But let me outline a couple of problems: you say you're usually in a rush in the morning (and with three kids under six, that's understandable!), but any machine you get will need time to warm up and achieve a state of thermal stability, whether it's a built-in or freestanding super-auto, a semi-auto, or a manual lever machine. That can be circumvented by having a machine that can be on 24/7 or by having the machine on an inexpensive appliance timer, set to switch on one hour before you get up in the morning.
My grinder is pretty fast; it doses a double (15 grams) in 3.5 seconds. The time it takes to pull a shot is approximately 25 seconds, and I can steam milk for my wife's latte in less time than that -- that is, I start the shot, go to the freezer, get the milk, steam it, and finish before the shot is done. So the actual making of a coffee takes less than a minute -- add time for a second cup (first for my wife, then for me), setup (pour the milk into the pitchers, place in the freezer while I grind the coffee, do a cooling flush, etc., etc.), cleanup (rinse and dry the pitchers, portafilters, and baskets, flush the group, etc.), and it will take approximately ten minutes -- sometimes as much as 15 -- to make three drinks (toss in one straight shot).
Now 10-15 minutes doesn't sound like much to me, and I could always manage it when my kids were both under six -- and still can now that they're teenagers! -- but some people think that amount of time is impossible in the morning! If it seems impossible to you, re-think a super-auto but don't buy a built-in. But, presuming you wish to enjoy better espresso than you can ever get from a super-auto . . .
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
Standard Questions: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at ay one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pourover machine with its own reservoir? 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? 6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?
ALL of us here are trying to help you, but remember this is a site for people who are serious about great coffee of all types, especially espresso . . . the terms "great espresso" and "super-automatic" never really fit in the same sentence except is in opposition.
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