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Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
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Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Apr 22, 2012, 7:47pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

BubbaDude Said:

So you're calling the QC process a "technology" and the actual product a "design?"

Posted April 22, 2012 link

No, and my apologies for not being more clear (but please don't mangle my words).  

The QC System is a measurement and evaluation SYSTEM.
The proprietary PROCESS is a manufacturing process.  

Together these were used for research to determine profiles and geometries (sp?) that allowed for consistent extraction characteristics across a wide range of brewing conditions as measured with a coffee refractometer (another patented technology).  

No other basket can make such claims, although some have a nice finish and/or better-than-average hole formation.  


Just because one doesn't notice what's different does not mean there isn't a difference.  I'm a mechanical engineer, and you are (I believe) an electrical engineer.  We each will naturally understand different concepts from different disciplines to varying degrees.  You may not see much room for improvement for a hole through a thin piece of metal, but to me the two products look quite different when examined closely.

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 535
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Sun Apr 22, 2012, 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

JonR10 Said:

Just because one doesn't notice what's different does not mean there isn't a difference.

Posted April 22, 2012 link

I think it means there's no meaningful difference, although claims will be made regardless. There's no doubt that the VST has more holes arranged in a broader pattern.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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frank828
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Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Posts: 581
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Posted Sun Apr 22, 2012, 8:08pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

from what i understand, one of the vst/strada basket's main goals was to eliminate one factor of inconsistency within the espresso prep and extraction.  so instead of dealing with many different types and inconsistent manufacturing, you have one that is extremely precise and consistent from one vst basket to another.  

this is the video that came to mind, also.      
Click Here (www.youtube.com)
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
Grinder: Robur, B-Vario-W
Vac Pot: Hario Tabletop, Yama...
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Apr 22, 2012, 8:20pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

BubbaDude Said:

I think it means there's no meaningful difference, although claims will be made regardless.

Posted April 22, 2012 link

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.  

And sorry for my ambiguity (again).
Some people will easily notice the difference, and others may not.  
Considering the cost, my guess is that LaMarzocco did not adopt this technology for "no meaningful difference"

And now I'll bow out so you BDB owners can get back to talking about BDB stuff.  
Thre are some great VST threads around if you'd like to engage in that conversation in depth.  
Check out the posts by AndyS for more

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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dagoat
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 342
Location: santa barbara, ca
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Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola, BDB...
Grinder: HG-One, baratza vario
Vac Pot: aeropress
Drip: manual
Roaster: cafe rosto
Posted Sun Apr 22, 2012, 11:39pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

jon sez:

You may not see much room for improvement for a hole through a thin piece of metal, but to me the two products look quite different when examined closely

with respect to the bolded part, (added by me), what were the circumstances where you got to be privy to an apples-to-apples comparo?  do you have any pictures?  phil has shown us microscopic photos of how the breville basket compares to either a synesso or la marzocco, (before they switched).  and, well, after seeing them under a microscope, I'm glad i have the breville.

-peter
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shawngt2
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shawngt2
Joined: 1 Jun 2004
Posts: 26
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Apr 23, 2012, 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

JonR10 Said:

This is an incorrect assumption.  
The Breville baskets are nice, but VST is different technology.  



The Maestro is "iffy" at best for espresso, and nowhere near consistent enough for VST baskets.  The Azkoyen may fare better but I'm not familiar with the model you have so I cannot say for sure.  

It's not just how fine the grind is.  
Most great espresso grinders exhibit a (consistent) particular bimodal particle size distribution.

Posted April 22, 2012 link

I had issues with my grind previously and after following peoples advice on here, re-adjusted my grinder to be finer and all problems were fixed!  I was struggling with making good coffee for over two months, now 90% of my shots are delicious! I'm a happy camper now and also roasting my beans successfully :)  Lovin' it!  I've been using my VST 18g regularily.  After trying my naked PF, I get squirts no matter how even or well I dose and tamp.  I'm curious now, I'll try the BDB slock double basket with the naked tomorrow and see what happens...
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mcknightp
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Sydney, Aus
Expertise: Pro Barista

Espresso: LM 3 Grp
Grinder: Robur, Swift
Posted Mon Apr 23, 2012, 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

dagoat Said:

jon sez:


with respect to the bolded part, (added by me), what were the circumstances where you got to be privy to an apples-to-apples comparo?  do you have any pictures?  phil has shown us microscopic photos of how the breville basket compares to either a synesso or la marzocco, (before they switched).  and, well, after seeing them under a microscope, I'm glad i have the breville.

-peter

Posted April 22, 2012 link

OK, here's an update. The first pic is a VST 20g & the second pic is a Breville 18g. To be honest the Breville 18g has holes that are "rounder". The Breville basket is a used one I just "cleaned" & the VST is brand new. You guys be the judge as to the Breville quality.

VST 20g click here

Breville 18g click here

Cheers, Phil
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JohnLyn
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JohnLyn
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Posts: 243
Location: Golden, BC, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldy
Grinder: Vario
Drip: Bonavita
Roaster: Toastess popper
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2012, 11:46am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

Thank you for clarifying that Phil. The precision is impeccable!!

Could you tell me why Breville went with tapered walls?

The only reason I don't use the stock baskets is because of having to be precisely at 18grs. I like to be able to alter the dose as part of hitting the flavour profile that I am looking for.

However, there may very well be something that I am not understanding with the stock baskets and I am more than open to comment. Everything has been purposfully designed on this unit, which I greatly appreciate, so I look forward to understanding the basket design.

The VST's have been working great with the Breville with very consistent and repeatable results by the way!!!

John
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mcknightp
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Sydney, Aus
Expertise: Pro Barista

Espresso: LM 3 Grp
Grinder: Robur, Swift
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2012, 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

Well the baskets were already "off-tool" when I started with the company 2 years ago, so there was no plan to re-tool those. If I'd been able to choose a design back then, I would have gone with a Synesso style ridgeless design. But there may be something in the skunk-works, but that's more than 6 months away.

The current stock baskets don't need any precise dose to work. I set dose where the coffee tastes the best. I have to say I don't weigh it, but it would be in the range of 18-21g. Fresher coffee needs a bit more head space & older coffee needs less. I think some users are trying to hold dose at a certain weight (more likely height in the basket) cause they see this as to curing pucks sticking to the dispersion screen. Frankly I don't care about the puck sticking, I'm far more concerned about the taste of the espresso.

Cheers, Phil
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 535
Location: High in the Rockies
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2012, 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

Once again we find that the conventional wisdom about espresso machines and their components isn't very wise. There's no substitute for facts.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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