chelle Senior Member Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Chesterfield, MO Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: Press
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:20pm Subject: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
I've been using my machine for a little over a month and finally figured out that I probably need to do some maintenance (other than daily flushing, etc.). So, yesterday I ordered some Dezcal, Cafizia (? for backflushing) and some Grindz for my grinder. The products arrived today, and as soon as I got home, I started the cleaning process.
Clearly, I have no idea what I'm doing. I followed the extremely vague picture tutorial on the Dezcal package and dumped one packet into my water reservoir, then flipped my machine on and after it warmed up I started flushing it randomly through the group, steam wand and hot water dispenser. I ended up running 3 (maybe 4?) more reservoirs' worth of water through, but after drinking most of a cappuccino I started feeling a slight burning/tingling sensation at the back of my throat, then started having some indigestion-y feelings, which is not typical for me.
Needless to say, I dumped the rest of my drink and started flushing my own system with some water and milk, but now I need to figure out how to get the rest of the Dezcal out of my Rocket in a more thorough and systematic fashion, preferably in a process devoid of any dis-assembly.
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 12:03am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
I'm not familiar with your machine - so someone more knowledgeable is sure to jump in here.
The machines I've done are simple Single Boiler Dual Use .. and the dezcal goes through the boiler and then the fresh water flushes it out. But other types of machines (like HX type) have a large boiler for steam that doesn't get flushed out ... and there are special procedures that need to be followed to drain and flush those. If your machine has a large boiler with a heat exchanger then you may need to drain the boiler and flush it manually.
If someone here hasn't given you specific instructions for your machine soon .. you should get on one of the vendors websites or call a dealer for your machine for instructions on how to flush. The sooner the better as you don't want descaler sitting in your boiler for an extended period.
NOTE: the pump can't completely empty the water reservoir so pull the reservoir and dump it and rinse it really well before filling it with fresh water to flush everything.
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 6:05am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
Hi Michelle, relax. Dezcal is non toxic so it may not taste good, but you aren't going to die. I've never used dezcal so can't comment on specifics, but descalers are acidic so that was probably associated to the burning and upset stomach. There's also a good chance you didn't really do any particular descaling to your machine. Your machine is a HX machine which is a royal pain to descale. The HX line is easy, but the boiler is the difficult one to deal with. Because of this, it's best to use very soft water so you don't need to descale but once a year. Because your machine is only a month old, I'd be suspect of any particular scale build up unless you were using extmely hard water. If it were me I'd just flush the solution out. But at the same time, you're half way into it, so you may want to descale so you at least know you're starting fresh and can use soft water from here on out. Here's a guide to descaling an HX. Like I said you can descale the machine at this point or just follow the comments about rinsing the solution.
You should definitely be back flushing more than once a month lol. I personally do a clean water back flush after every espresso making session whether it's one shot or ten shots. Weekly (or every other week if I'm lazy) I will remove the dispersion screen and dispersion block and soak in detergent (like cafiza) along with my pf and baskets. Reassemble and do a detergent back flush per the instructions. I basically put 1/4 tsp or so of the detergent in the blind disk, do five cycles of running the pump for 15 sec, let the pump rest for 15 seconds. Remove the pf, rinse the group and the disk. Then put clean blind disk back and do 5 rinsing cycles of running the pump for 10 sec, letting the pump rest for 10 sec.
I've used grindz before. I personally disassemble the grinder and clean the burrs, but that's not for everyone. I think grindz do a decent job.
Hope that helps some. The thread for descaling is a little intense and long, but the infor is ther :-)
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 7:14am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
Joel_B Said:
You should definitely be back flushing more than once a month lol. I personally do a clean water back flush after every espresso making session whether it's on shot or ten shots. Weekly (or every other week if I'm lazy) I will remove the dispersion screen and dispersion block and soak in detergent (like cafiza) along with my pf and baskets. Reassemble and do a detergent back flush per the instructions. I basically put 1/4 tsp or so of the detergent in the blind disk, do five cycles of running the pump for 15 sec, let the pump rest for 15 seconds. Remove the pf, rinse The group and the disk. Then put clean blind disk back and do 5 rinsing cycles of running the pump for 10 sec, letting the pump rest for 10 sec.
Me, too, Michelle. Indeed, it's my routine every Saturday morning:
1) Back flush the group with JoeGlo (similar to Cafiza) as Joel describes above (5x @ 15 seconds ON, 15 seconds OFF), followed by a clean water back flush (5x @ 10 seconds ON, 10 seconds OFF);
2) Prepare a soaking/cleaning solution of JoeGlo and water; remove the dispersion block and screen; soak the portafilters, baskets, block, and screen as directed -- then rinse really well.
3) Scrub the brass block with a brass bristle brush.
4) Re-assemble the dispersion block and screen, run clean water through the block and do an additional few cycles of a clean water back flush (not really necessary, but it's my way of making sure there's no residual detergent still on the dispersion block).
As far as Grindz is concerned, I use it probably once ever 4-6 weeks. I do not disassemble the grinder, as Joel does, but I also don't change beans all that often so I cut myself greater slack here.
ampguy Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 119 Location: Pac NW Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:02am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
I've used Dezcal before, and it takes a very long time to get out of the machine completely. You can test for the presence of it by taking a sample of water through your brew head or steam wand, and dropping some baking soda in it. If the baking soda reacts with the water, then there is still some dezcal in the water.
chelle Senior Member Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Chesterfield, MO Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: Press
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:16am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
Thanks for the tips! I did manage to get the rest of the Dezcal flushed out this morning. I think most of it was in my cappa last night, because it only took a couple more flushes through the group before the sour taste in the water was gone. I noticed zero sediment in the water, so maybe my water isn't as hard as I feared it might be? We are renting a 30-ish year old house right now with fairly dated bathrooms and I haven't noticed excessive mineral buildup on the faucets or anything, so maybe a quarterly descale will be sufficient? Bottled water is out. Seriously, if I add any more daily expenses to my coffee habit, my husband is going to have a coronary, regardless of how I attempt to rationalize it.
I totally flaked on the backflushing. It's a quick and easy procedure, so I will definitely continue backflushing with water after every session, and once a week with detergent. I don't know how to disassemble the block, screen, etc, though. I didn't see any instructions for that in my manual. Is this a difficult process? Does it require tools?
chelle Senior Member Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Chesterfield, MO Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: Press
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:18am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
ampguy Said:
I've used Dezcal before, and it takes a very long time to get out of the machine completely. You can test for the presence of it by taking a sample of water through your brew head or steam wand, and dropping some baking soda in it. If the baking soda reacts with the water, then there is still some dezcal in the water.
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:22am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
You can get some hardness strips from a aquarium/pet supply store. Sorry, don't remember off the top of my head what hardness level yours safe (you do want some mineral in your water for taste, body, crema), but hopefully someone can post that. At least you'll know where you're at and ow long you can go between descalings.
Not sure with our machine, my Astra isn't a true faema e61 group. But my screen and block are held in with a single screw.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 11:46am Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
Glad you got the Dezcal all out, not tasty at all, lol. My water is not that hard so I descale once every 6-9 months. Yes it is a PIA but I actually find it kind of relaxing to do and knowing that you are getting build up out is a pleasant thought for me. After afew years with my machine I know when it is time to descale after so many increases to my pstat to compensate for build up, after a descale I am able to turn my pstat down to keep my flush to 1-3 sec of super heated purge.
Grindz, sometimes I wonder what the heck it is really doing but I still use it every 4 weeks. The Vario is very easy to clean the build up of fines with a tooth pick or some other kind of picking tool, I will even unscrew the burrs every 9 months to clean out any build up that happens to work its way in. Grindz does not remove the fines build up that packs into the crevices but in my mind it does clean off any oil build up on the pathway the grind travels and gets the burrs free of oil build up so I still use it.
Back flushing, I do it after every session with a scrub as well. My machine has a screw that holds the screen and diffuser to the group so it is easy to check, let me tell you it gets nasty dirty with coffee oil build up but a water back flush keeps things less disgusting in between a weekly chemical back flush clean. I am not 100% sure of this but I think some e61 groups the screen comes out only by removing the gasket, easy to check, looking up at the group if there is a screw in the center of the screen.
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 5:33pm Subject: Re: Dezcal is NOT very tasty
I got my machine from Chris and was told not to descale it, just use soft water. The water I'm getting is at 3 g of hardness but I also have an in tank water softener / filter which is good for three months by the amount of water I run through it. But I do a clear water flush every other day and a detergent flush every other week. I use grindz in my grinder every two months since I don't change beans all that much and once a year I break it down and do a complete cleaning. I also use the Cafizia for my back flushing. On my other machine which is a Gaggia Baby I used Cafclean to descale it like you did yours but I would pull a couple of shots before I even tried drinking any of it
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