Posted Wed Feb 29, 2012, 9:53pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
dtlord Said:
James,
I find that many of the "circular threads" don't answer much at all for someone reading said thread only months later. I for one have been researching since before I became a member here, and that was what....3 years ago? Many things have changed during that time as far as grinders, and what machines are well received at their current price point. My own wants have changed during all of my research, thus changing the direction of my research. At many points I know others would have posted one of many questions. However, being a member of many forums and having run a few I kept researching. Now that I am at the end of my wait and I have the money to buy I am reluctant to ask any question due to the negativity I see from some....and of course the inevitable question of what grinder do you have when I am asking a brewer question. Maybe some of us need the extra little friendly push from fellow geeks to feel safe in the decision to spend the large amounts this hobby demands.
Everything you said there is 100% understandable. My only gripe was with people who want a magic answer without any knowledge, or people who ask for advice and then refute/ignore the answers given. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things I suppose, but it starts to crowd the board eventually. Especially when these threads are cropping up at 3-5 per week.
This has been going on since I first got onto the various discussion groups and boards- back in late 2000. What's the best machine? Do I really need to spend that much on a grinder? Can't I buy pre-ground until I can afford one? Why is my coffee so bad when I just bought it at the grocery store today, so I know it is fresh? And on and on and on. Over the years I have answered some of those questions, and many others, repeatedly. But I agree that the only time I get really bothered here is when advice is given, then repeatedly questioned, then ignored by the person asking.
You would assume that most folks know about search functions, and Google is certainly no mystery. With around 1000 unique daily visitors to my website each week, someone is out there reading. If we guide those who come in from the dark in the right direction by giving them a candle, we all benefit. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, light the candle and stick it in their eye. It's a philosophy to live by... ;-)
Phil_In_Ottawa Senior Member Joined: 1 Oct 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Ottawa, ON Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Vibiemme DD Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: Newco OCS-12
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 6:53am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
JtothaR Said:
My only gripe was with people who want a magic answer without any knowledge, or people who ask for advice and then refute/ignore the answers given. - James
Please know that I do a lot of research and try to educate myself as much as I can before asking questions.
The reason I started this thread was because I wanted to confirm my understanding of the process involved in making espresso using an HX machine. After reading about it, it seemed more involved than what I was looking for. So, before I went out and started researching what I felt was a better choice for me (DB machines) more thoroughly, I wanted to ask the group in case I missed something or I made a bigger deal out of the HX process than necessary. The asnwers I received convinced me the I was right about the DB being the one for me.
Again, I did not want to cause anyone any grief by posing my question. Sorry if I did.
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 7:19am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
Phil_In_Ottawa Said:
I'm not sure if you are talking about me here.
Please know that I do a lot of research and try to educate myself as much as I can before asking questions.
The reason I started this thread was because I wanted to confirm my understanding of the process involved in making espresso using an HX machine. After reading about it, it seemed more involved than what I was looking for. So, before I went out and started researching what I felt was a better choice for me (DB machines) more thoroughly, I wanted to ask the group in case I missed something or I made a bigger deal out of the HX process than necessary. The asnwers I received convinced me the I was right about the DB being the one for me.
Again, I did not want to cause anyone any grief by posing my question. Sorry if I did.
I don't think he refers to you. At least i can see that you really did a lot of researches from your part! But the thing with forum searches is that, many times, there's no single definitive conclusion even after 5-6 hours of readings! Many times I find myself doing a search on a topic, at the end of the session, I still don't quite get my questions answered completely, because some of threads are just spinning in circle. There're also times when my keywords don't hit the right spot and missed a few crucial threads. So don't feel bad about this at all!
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 8:03am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
Phil_In_Ottawa Said:
I'm not sure if you are talking about me here.
Please know that I do a lot of research and try to educate myself as much as I can before asking questions.
The reason I started this thread was because I wanted to confirm my understanding of the process involved in making espresso using an HX machine. After reading about it, it seemed more involved than what I was looking for. So, before I went out and started researching what I felt was a better choice for me (DB machines) more thoroughly, I wanted to ask the group in case I missed something or I made a bigger deal out of the HX process than necessary. The asnwers I received convinced me the I was right about the DB being the one for me.
Again, I did not want to cause anyone any grief by posing my question. Sorry if I did.
Thicken that skin man! None of us are holding your credit card. The advice here is free and worth every penny, sometimes more. James is right. The thought that good espresso isn't easy or cheap is not common knowledge. I faced this going in trying to make do with the cheapest of the cheap - the shots looked good sometimes and tasted good too but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.
Consistent quality starts at a staggering level for most - beans: $10 a bag? are you crazy? Grinder: My Grocery store has one, I'm good. Machine: But the Mr Coffee Steam Espresso at Walmart is only $50 this week. Sounds like a real newb, right? That was me a couple years ago.
To someone new (me back then at least), the $ and effort seem absurd until you have that one shot that tastes so good you forget all you thought you knew and finally begin learning.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 8:41am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
EricBNC Said:
Thicken that skin man! None of us are holding your credit card. The advice here is free and worth every penny, sometimes more. James is right. The thought that good espresso isn't easy or cheap is not common knowledge. I faced this going in trying to make do with the cheapest of the cheap - the shots looked good sometimes and tasted good too but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.
Consistent quality starts at a staggering level for most - beans: $10 a bag? are you crazy? Grinder: My Grocery store has one, I'm good. Machine: But the Mr Coffee Steam Espresso at Walmart is only $50 this week. Sounds like a real newb, right? That was me a couple years ago.
To someone new (me back then at least), the $ and effort seem absurd until you have that one shot that tastes so good you forget all you thought you knew and finally begin learning.
Right,exactly!! Two years ago, I didn't even know you actually need grinder for coffee. I have always thought coffee would just melt in water (instant coffee). And my budget was like $50 max when I started out. That even seems like an insanely big number to me at that time. It's so absurd to me that these people all here spending so much(1k+ for a grinder?!?!you lost your mind??), just for a cup of coffee! Now, see who's talking. Hahaha! But once you get into the game, the $ value gets smaller and smaller in the face of good shot. And very fortunately(or unfortunately), you won't really regret it. Slightly OT, but Eric's post reflects my thoughts exactly. Even then, I don't even know how to search the forum properly. Everything seems so foreign. So I really understand the beginners who started by posting seeming obvious question(to old timers). They didn't know where to start looking and posting a question seems to be the most obvious solution.
hankua Senior Member Joined: 29 Aug 2009 Posts: 204 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Salvatore One Black Grinder: Pharos,Rossi RR45OD, Lido,... Drip: CCD Roaster: Yang-Chia 800n
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 9:18am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
I think this has been an informative thread even if the initial question is repetitive. How many people actually are lucky enough to see and use the expensive machines in question? Is it worth the extra money to get the DB over the HX? Making the right choice in the beginning can save a whole lot of money; providing you don't get upgradeitis.
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 10:06am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
As you have seen from the various posts in this thread as well as other threads, it is a difficult decision to make, and regardless of some of the proposals for testing, it is a nearly impossible test to perform (HX vs., DB). And with aplologies to those who have read this info from me previously, I will document my history as an example: - I started with Silvia and Rocky in late 2000 - 6½ years later, Silvia was sold and replaced with a Vibiemme Domobar Super (HX, E-61, reservoir). The improvement was immediately noticeable. Much fuller taste, better body, and improved consistency. - About one year later the Rocky was sold and replaced by the massive Mazzer Kony (large conical burrs). I got a deal on a used one that I couldn't refuse. The difference drew out many more flavors that I had never experienced. I actually changed my house blend a bit to smooth out the flavor. The quality of the Mazzer is such that it makes the Rocky look like it came from a department store. - After four years with the Domobar Super, it was sold and replaced by the third generation Vibiemme Domobar Double (PID controlled brew boiler, double boiler, E-61, plumbed). There lies the difficulty of comparison. On the surface, the difference between the last two machines was single vs. dual boiler, but this is compounded by the accuracy of the PID brew temperature control and the preheating of water entering the brew boiler. But what must also be considered is the rotary pump and plumbed water supply that in conjunction with the E-61 manual group affords manual preinfusion. Once again, switching to this machine also increased the consistency as well as the quality of the espresso compared to the HX. But what created that improvement? Was is being plumbed? The preinfusion? The PID control of brew temp? The rotary pump? The answer is, yes. All those things combine to give a synergistic improvement that is seemingly greater than the sum of the parts.
And there are hidden benefits to the DD. The US importer did some extensive scientific testing and worked directly with the factory to solve some problems with the machine to go from v.2 which had temperature difficulties to V.3 which has been shown to give performance equal to machines that cost two to three times more.
So, what about a rotary, plumbed HX? Ya.. what about that? Which design is best? There are marginal dual boilers (like the Gaggia/Kitchenaid) which can be easily beat by a decent HX machine. So the design itself is not as important as how the technology and design is implemented. My experience has made me a big fan of the E-61 group as found on the VBM machines. It is very simple in design,. very easy to service, gives manual preinfusion, and it just plain works. When I have a choice I shy away from technological solutions that can be effectively implemented by simple, mechanical means. I would rather have manual preinfusion than electronically programmable preinfusion. I would rather face the trouble of turning off the extraction when I want to rather than having programmable shot volume or timing. I think those are fair tradeoffs in order to have the manufacturer to then include a a large, brass pressure relief valve than a plastic one. I like stock, readily-available parts rather then proprietary ones.
So I offer this, not to talk you (or anyone else) into or away from any manufacturer or design, but to show that you need to assess your needs, desire, and bank account and use that information to finally decide.
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 10:34am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
BubbaDude Said:
It would be nice to read an article on the HX vs. DB question that was nothing but numbers taken from side-by-side comparison. What are the actual facts about energy cost, warmup time, temp stability shot-to-shot and within each shot, reaction time to temp adjustment, accuracy of the cooling flush methods, etc.
I would be interested in this too... I would classify myself as a 'knowledgeable' user of the HX. I have been pulling 2-3 shots on my trusty ecm giotto (hx) for about 6 years I guess it is. EricS' thermocouple adapter will solve your guessing game and I'm satisfied with the shot quality / repeat-ability on this machine with the adapter/temp gauge. However - with energy costs what they are, I would like to see if being able to disable the steam tank vs. running the 1500w boiler all day will mean any savings in direct energy costs and heat produced that I need to cool via A/C here in the summer heat. Also - I would be interested in lowering the noise a little by checking out a rotary pump vs the vibratory one.... and plumbing in the machine... :-)
Because there are thousands of posts - don't worry, you can take that to mean there is very little difference in the end product. If I've learned anything about we obsessive types, if there are that many posts and no clear repeatable winner - there's nary a lick of difference in the cup. What you need to decide is how you want that product produced, which is why I'm interested to hear about the energy / noise issues that might tip the scales for me now vs. back then.
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 11:27am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
Phil_In_Ottawa Said:
I'm not sure if you are talking about me here.
Please know that I do a lot of research and try to educate myself as much as I can before asking questions.
The reason I started this thread was because I wanted to confirm my understanding of the process involved in making espresso using an HX machine. After reading about it, it seemed more involved than what I was looking for. So, before I went out and started researching what I felt was a better choice for me (DB machines) more thoroughly, I wanted to ask the group in case I missed something or I made a bigger deal out of the HX process than necessary. The asnwers I received convinced me the I was right about the DB being the one for me.
Again, I did not want to cause anyone any grief by posing my question. Sorry if I did.
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