Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:54pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
My reply would have the heading "different strokes for different folks". All this talk about the easiest precise way to get the proper temp. No matter which of the 2 systems you have you will still have to learn your machine for a while and then consistency will come "very easily". I would bet that your first few days with either machine WOULD NOT give consistent shots (easily, with no thought). I would also bet that after a few weeks had past, either machine WOULD give you easy consistent shots. You have to learn the system you have. If you owned an HX and a DB I doubt you would find either of them that much "easier" to pull a good shot with. I use an old "dipper" lever machine. No nice stable HX or DB with perfect PID temp setting (and there is nothing wrong with that, I've had PID on a machine). I just have a direct dipper tube pulling from my 230 degree boiler. But after a short time of setting my temp and learning my system, it's dead easy. I can probably pull a consistent shot as easily as with either of the other systems. Have fun. If you get a quality machine any of them will pull a quality shot fairly easily once you spend a bit of time with it.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2012, 1:06am Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
I prefer a double boiler (hybrid type in my case) because I get the temps I want just like the HX cooling flush (obviously without the flush) but I can turn off the steam bank if i do not want milk (a lot of DB's have this energy saving feature) - my machine is keeping the brew boiler water hot using only a 600 watt element when I am going without milk. This energy efficiency is worth considering.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
You are right that I sounded like I had already made up my mind. Based on what I had read, the DB was the simpler solution for me. But I was willing to listen to arguments in favour of the HX and open to changing my decision if I found them compelling enough.
But reading the responses above confirms that I will be happiest with the DB. So I will continue to pursue that route.
JonR10 Said:
Also, I've had my fill of HX vs. DB wars here lately.
I know, and please forgive me for being a little testy. This thread (fortunately) did not go as some of the others have, and for that I'm thankful. And I'm also thankful for our community giving you the type of input you were looking for.
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2012, 1:39pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
It would be nice to read an article on the HX vs. DB question that was nothing but numbers taken from side-by-side comparison. What are the actual facts about energy cost, warmup time, temp stability shot-to-shot and within each shot, reaction time to temp adjustment, accuracy of the cooling flush methods, etc.
Take a group of 5 DBs such as CC1, BDB, Duetto, VBM, and GS/3 and 5 HXs what run the gamut of price from BZ02 to whatever the top end is, run them through a rigorous battery of measurements and report the results.
Then people can discuss their subjective impressions against an empirical background and we'll have a reference thread each time the question is raised. There's certainly every indication that the question hasn't been answered satisfactorily at this point, that's why it keeps coming up.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Posted Tue Feb 28, 2012, 2:10pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
BubbaDude Said:
Take a group of 5 DBs such as CC1, BDB, Duetto, VBM, and GS/3 and 5 HXs what run the gamut of price from BZ02 to whatever the top end is, run them through a rigorous battery of measurements and report the results.
Thanks for the input and perspective, you bring up a very thoughtful and valid point
Although not rigorous or organized, quite a bit of typical data has already been posted for a number of machines including "prosumer class" HX machines as well as a few DB machines. This leads me to believe that the numerical data about energy consumption and shot temperatures is not the whole story (or maybe not enough for some certain people).
We've seen debates about differences in taste related to intra-shot temperature profiling (i.e. flat temp vs. humped profile). My point is that it seems that there is often some subjective criteria that can not be quantified.
And so the debate rages on. I'd say the same about doser vs. doserless grinders (but I'm not wanting to revisit that either).
No doubt about it, at the end of the day everyone has their own favorite flavors and the interaction between flush time and bean is bound to be really, really subtle for a skilled operator using all of this senses.
Still, I think it would be worthwhile to at least organize the data that we do have so it's more easily accessible to the people who are asking this question. Compiling a list of unknowns might be part of that effort, and the hump vs. flat profile may be one of the unknowns. It's probably not an unknown to those of you who've been pulling your own shots for 20 years, but its significance isn't necessarily appreciated by all of us newbies.
Do some beans and/or some roasts like a humped profile more than others? Has anybody ever done a flat vs. humped blind tasting with expert judges?
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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