Phil_In_Ottawa Senior Member Joined: 1 Oct 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Ottawa, ON Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Vibiemme DD Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: Newco OCS-12
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 2:26pm Subject: One more time - HX vs DB
Hi all,
I know the topic of HX vs Double Boiler has been discussed since the dawn of time and, let me tell you, I've read many threads on the subject. Yet, I'm still confused. So I'm here asking you to please bear with me and hopefully shed the final spotlight on this topic for me and make me see the clear way ahead.
Here's the situation: I currently have a Silvia V3/Vario combination. I've had it for about 1.5 years and I'm able to make excellent espresso (according to what all who have tasted it have reported). I'm still struggling with the milk frothing but that's probably due to the fact that we pretty much only drink americanos and espressos. But I feel that my infrequent feeble attempts at microfoam are good enough when I do make a milk-based drink, so it's not a big problem for me.
We are now moving and are gutting and redesigning the kitchen in the new condo we are moving to. So I've decided to replace the Silvia. Since we are building from scratch, I want to go with a plumbed-in machine (both the supply and drainage). And I also want to move up from the SBDU.
Like I said, I've been reading and reading about HX and, to me, it sounds like it's not much different than the temperature surfing I now do with the Silvia. In fact, the whole flushing "water dance" thing sounds even more error prone. With the Silvia, I run water from the steam wand until the boiler light comes on, turn on my timer and hit the brew switch after 34 seconds have elapsed and out comes very good espresso. It's actually pretty easy and reproducible time after time. But from what I understand, the HX flushing thing involves listening for the steam to turn to water and then "flushing 1 or 2 more ounces" which sounds pretty subjective to me. And, of course, how long it will take will depend on how long the machine has been idle and how hot the water has become making the whole process very variable from one pull to the next.
In my mind, the double boiler (with PID) sounds much more precise in that you can control the brew water temperature directly with no need for flushing or measuring or timing.
I'm looking to simplify my espresso routine. I don't want to surf or dance anymore. So, to me, the double boiler seems to be a no-brainer. I know it's more expensive comapred to the HX, but the extra $500 is insignificant considering the entire kitchen budget.
So, am I thinking this through properly? Is there something I have not understood about the HX that would make it something I should consider? Between, say, the Alex II HX and Alex II Duetto, can the HX give me the simplicity I'm after or is the Duetto the way I should go?
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 2:46pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
Flushing is not the same as temp surfing on a Silvia. An HX machine with a E-61 group and thermosyphon tends to be stable at the ideal brew temperature. The brew water will overheat if the machine is idle for a long period of time. The flush returns the brew temperature to nominal. Flushes aren't needed when pulling shots closely together.
As many others have pointed out, the HX flush is no big deal. You can mount a thermometer in the group for greater precision, if desired.
The HX machines are less complex and draw less power than a double boiler. The better HX machines are reliable and produce consistent results.
If you just don't want any hassle, then a double boiler is worth considering. It's not really necessary for most applications but some people just want things as easy as possible.
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 2:54pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
pre-emptive Mod note : Let's try to keep this conversation civil. I personally won't hesitate to remove posts that are personal attacks, or could be perceived as such.
Phil_In_Ottawa Said:
In my mind, the double boiler (with PID) sounds much more precise in that you can control the brew water temperature directly with no need for flushing or measuring or timing.
I'm looking to simplify my espresso routine. I don't want to surf or dance anymore. So, to me, the double boiler seems to be a no-brainer.
Forgive me for being blunt, but it sounds like you've already decided.
Phil_In_Ottawa Said:
I know the topic of HX vs Double Boiler has been discussed since the dawn of time and, let me tell you, I've read many threads on the subject. Yet, I'm still confused. So I'm here asking you to please bear with me and hopefully shed the final spotlight on this topic for me and make me see the clear way ahead.
There are already too many threads on this subject for me to count, so I'll promise that this thread will not shed any "final spotlight" any better than the previous threads. Have you seen Dan's "HX Love" article on Home-Barista.com?
If you've reviewed the above, as well as "many threads" and you're still confused the difference between flushing a HX vs. temp surfing a SBDU then maybe you could try getting together with someone who has an HX machine and letting them show you what they do.
If you're really interested, of course.
Not trying to be rude or mean, but your language suggests that you don't want to fiddle with temperature management. A PID-controlled double boiler simplifies that process about as much as possible, and if you can afford it then why not?
Also, I've had my fill of HX vs. DB wars here lately.
MTmama Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 49 Location: Bozeman, MT Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Alex Duetto Grinder: Super Jolly
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 2:56pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
For many of the reasons you stated in your post I decided to upgrade to a DB from my Silvia. My Silvia is completely capable, but I'm tired of guessing what temp I'm brewing at or steaming first, then cooling, then brewing my shot. I'm tired of filling the tank. I just wanted to take as many variables as possible out of the equation. I *hope* the Duetto that is being delivered today (if the men in brown would ever get their keesters here) will cure my upgradeitis or at least keep it at bay for a few years while I master this new machine!
I will say once I started my research and was wavering between an upgraded HX and DB machine I was concerned that if I went with the HX I would kick myself later for not going with the DB. So, really much of my decision was a gut decision on what I thought would serve me best!
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 3:23pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
There will be no difference in the cup for the most part.
If I want a 205f shot on a HX then flush until super heated water stops, if I want a shot at 201f then flush for 4 more seconds after super heated water.
On a DB if Pid is at 205f and I want a 201f shot then adjust pid and flush, let temp stabilize for a moment. If I want to go from 199f to 203f then readjust pid and wait until entire brew group stabilizes at higher temp, this take a bit of time. Now the part that seems to be overlooked by many getting a DB is that the boiler is not actually the temp on the pid, it is hotter which means an offset is taken into consideration to give the temp you set. Is this set proper for the environment the machine sits? Unless you check this and adjust the offset then a DB pid reading is no more precise then a HX and it seems many people will set a temp and never really know they may be off the temp they want.
I may be a very small minority that thinks HX machines are easier to work with since it is up to me to get the temp I want and I am not counting on a digital read out that may or may not be accurate. I also like less parts which in turn mean more space to work on a HX machine.
Just something to ponder. Good luck with your decision.
scanfield Senior Member Joined: 21 Nov 2011 Posts: 170 Location: Texas Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Nuovo Era Cuadra Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 3:44pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
dsblv Said:
Flushing is not the same as temp surfing on a Silvia. An HX machine with a E-61 group and thermosyphon tends to be stable at the ideal brew temperature.
There is no singular ideal brew temperature. If you want 199 degrees, you flush longer than if you want 205 degrees. This is the part that is similar (in an abstract way) to temperature surfing.
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 4:11pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
In your case, definitely go for DB. It's much easier to get consistent brew temperature without a lot of learning, sounds like just what you needed. It's basically plug and play(almost). Although the boiler and grouphead temperature has an offset, the offset difference should stay pretty constant,maybe +- 1-2 degrees.
For hx, if you get a E61 group, you can fit in an Eric's thermometer(about $100 from CC) to help with the flushing routine. Very helpful, but the learning curve is definitely still there. The flushing is slightly longer too than with a DB. Plus you get the dilemma whether to flush and go, or flush and wait, or should you flush in between 1 min, 2 min, and 3 min shot etc etc.. Definitely more variables than using a DB, but not impossible. The flushing routine is easier as compared with temp surfing on a SBDU. The result is not so bad but it definitely will take a while to nail it down.
So if you're a person willing to fuss with many variables to gain the best cup result, HX is a very attractive alternative. If i read correctly, you can play with the temperature profile a little bit based on your flushing routine. With DB, you don't get much variable to play with, except for different temperatures at a almost flat(or declining) temperature profile. Based on your need for simplicity, I believe DB is the one for you(and probably mine too, only if I can afford).
It's just plain sad that people tie their or someone else's worth to an opinion about type of appliance.
Phil_In_Ottawa Said:
And, of course, how long it will take will depend on how long the machine has been idle and how hot the water has become making the whole process very variable from one pull to the next.
This was big deal for me when i choose a DB. I work from home a great deal and when i want a shot during the day, I want it, I want it right and I want it right now. I often don't have time for anything beyond grind, tamp pull before my next call. Like most of us at night or weekends I play around with all kinds of variables trying for a better shot. I would say you have good enough grip to make decision. I missed a 2 group Legend on ebay for $2500 bucks or you can bet this would be a two espresso machine house. My Duetto DB for kitchen duty and the Legend HX for the bar and entertaining.
dsblv Said:
If you just don't want any hassle, then a double boiler is worth considering.
this is not quite accurate else the DB would be all super automatics. Precision with less work and error is more like the motivation.
germantownrob Said:
Now the part that seems to be overlooked by many getting a DB is that the boiler is not actually the temp on the pid, it is hotter which means an offset is taken into consideration to give the temp you set.
Like anything it needs to be check occasionally but the the difference in the temp and relative humidity in my house from say December with the furnace on and July with my air on is not going to be substantial enough to have a measurable impact in the off set given the mass of whole assembly. This of course assumes the off set was correct at some point. if i find a shot to be sour because the brew temp is to cool then it will be consistently sour shot after shot. If i raise the temp on my PID until its no longer sour then it will not be sour shot after shot. I could not care in the least that Jeff at Redbird recommends 199 for the blend and my PID says 205.
germantownrob Said:
then a DB pid reading is no more precise then a HX and it seems many people will set a temp and never really know they may be off the temp they want.
The real questions at this point are: 1.) Is the User with an HX more accurate than the PID with a dedicated boiler? Clearly that depends on the user with there being little doubt in my mind that an experienced hand like you, Jon, Wayne are very capable of meeting or surpassing the PID. That said this answer is clearly variable. 2.) Is there an ROI for the time and effort using an HX? Only the purchaser can decided. This answer is variable as well take Jon who went from a GS3 DB to an HX Legend or Wayne who is an HX fan but says his dream machine is a Synesso which is a DB.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,018 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 4:53pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
Yes many live year round with climate control however is a machine sitting on an exterior wall or an interior wall. What about air flow from the vents? What are the climate control settings from dead of winter and dead of summer? Will this have a big impact on what comes from a machine? What about those that actually open windows? All these things have an impact and it is entirely up to the user to know their machine and be able to adjust.
In the end it will always come down to the individual spending the money to make the choice. What is bothersome is so many actually think DBs are a better machine when that simple is not the case. To be honest I would like to have both kinds of machines to find the best temp curve for a particular bean and I would be darn certain my DB's offset was properly set or at the very least knew that the offset was off by X amount so I could properly compensate.
Posted Mon Feb 27, 2012, 8:35pm Subject: Re: One more time - HX vs DB
Well I got a QM Andreja Premium HX, I don't have a thermometer in the group head yet so when I do the cooling flush I wait until I have just water coming out which equals about 4 oz of water. Then I'll put the pf in and pull my double. The only thing I don't like about the HX is wasting water to do the cooling flush since I'm not hooked up to a direct water supply. So the first thing I'm going to get is an in tank filter / water softener, then the group head thermometer.
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