I think maybe that was intended to mean "debatable pro" vs. a con. As pointed out already, PID doesn't benefit the HX machine much in terms of brewing temperature management.
As for reliability, we've all been down this road before. Once again, I'll say that it has been my personal experience that neither system is 100% reliable, and electronics can fail just as mechanical devices can fail.
For the record, I have said many times that the little BS pressure-stats on most "prosumer" HX machines are crap and not only prone to early failure but many are also inherently unsafe because they fail closed (heater ON). Some even have full 110V running through the adjustment screw so you can get a nice shock if you aren't careful adjusting (i.e. unplug the machine to make an adjustment)
The "standard" commercial Sirai pressurestat available on some prosumer machines is very robust and can last for many many years without wearing out. It is basically a spring-loaded contactor so it doesn't need a separate power relay. Plus it has an extra set of contacts that can be used if you manage to wear out a set (I've never worn out a set of contacts, but other people say they have).
My previous wega HX (Sirai) is still running fine after 6 years of daily use
BubbaDude Said:
Pressurestats wear out and need to be replaced every two or three years by design, which is the main reason that HX fans are so big on user serviceability.
As an HX owner, I will politely disagree with that statement and believe it to be based on theory and conjecture rather than one's personal experience. It might have been helpful to preface with "I suppose" or "based on reading in forums it seems" rather than to state as fact something that's just not true.
As far as I'm concerned, serviceability is an advantage for any mechanical equipment and even a digital espresso machine has a pump and valves that will fail eventually with use. But maybe that's partially due to my personality because I'm a tinkerer.
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 7:42pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
JonR10 Said:
As for reliability, we've all been down this road before. Once again, I'll say that it has been my personal experience that neither system is 100% reliable, and electronics can fail just as mechanical devices can fail.
It's not sound engineering to reduce questions of system design to anecdote and personal experience, nor is it good manners to misrepresent other people's arguments. I didn't say that any system is 100% reliable, I said that solid state systems are inherently more reliable than electro-mechanical ones.
You can verify that from textbooks, from repair shop experience, and from the bulk of the postings on this forum and others regarding the failures that various kinds of espresso machines undergo. Sirai puts that extra set of contacts on their pressurestat for a reason.
In any case, I'm interested in knowing what the OP is thinking.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 8:06pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
Just to be clear, the OP is trying to judge whether the Izzo's PID is a plus or a minus compared to the ECM's pressurestat. I think it's a plus for reasons of performance, reliability, and user convenience.
This is an empirical question, not a "different strokes" question.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 8:49pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
glcoffee Said:
- PID: Izzo. Yes, this feature is debatable and is a whole other discussion by itself. Nonetheless, this feature comes standard on the Izzo and is nice to have (IMO).
The OP has stated that he feels the PID is "nice to have", and so he does not appear to be "trying to judge" if it's a plus. Let's all try to stay on topic.
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 8:54pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
To comprehend comments, it's helpful to read them in their entirety. For example:
glcoffee Said:
- PID Lack of PID on the Rocket (Yes, I have read a lot of discussions on this topic.) PID on HX machines can be a pro or con, depending on who you ask. The fact of the matter is that it comes standard on the Izzo.
I wouldn't put much stock in any opinion to the effect that the PID on the Izzo is a con. The question would be whether it's a big plus or a small one, but it's clearly a plus of some kind.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 9:19pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
I have a PID on my machine and like it. My friend has a HX machine (no PID) that is very nice - repeatable shots are easy with each of our machines. becoming proficient with the flush is not difficult after he instructed me about the technique.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 2:40pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
You can buy a rebuild kit for the Sirai pressurestat, but it only includes a replacement for the rubber membrane, not the contacts. It runs $45 from Orphan Espresso. I don't know whether it's wise to have one of these on hand or not, but you probably don't want water leaking into your electrics.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Tue Feb 21, 2012, 2:09am Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
First and foremost, I want to thank everyone that contributed to this discussion. From all of the feedbacks that I have received, I have found more comfort and acquired more knowledge in my purchasing.
I have made a few calls today and have spoken to many people on the front lines of selling these machines. The fact of the matter is, everyone finds the best in their own products and will tell you that XYZ is inferior because of (insert sales pitch here). From all the calls, there was one vendor in particular that stayed genuinely neutral to what they had to say, provide you the pros/cons of your decision and takes the time to make sure you understand; needless to say, I will be purchasing from this vendor shortly. Yes, we did discuss PID for some time and once you get a good understanding for what it really is desgined for, the pros/cons was easy for me to weigh.
At the end of the day, some need to realize that a person makes a decision on many factors and every single product was designed for a particular buyer in mind; what works for me may not be for you.
It is the wealth of information from CG members like you that really help guide newbies such as myself. I am pleased to say that I will be placing my order tomorrow...PID or not :)
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
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