hyolee Senior Member Joined: 3 Feb 2012 Posts: 9 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 8:35am Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
OP,
If you see yourself wanting to make several drinks at the same time the Breville is a great choice. If it's mainly for one person, then something inexpensive like a Gaggia Color or Gaggia Classic will do the trick. Reason being, you'll have to wait for the machine to heat up and cool down between brewing and steaming temperatures between drinks, whereas the Breville will let you make espresso and steam milk at the same time.
The Breville also has some nice features like accurate brewing temperature, better steaming, built in timer, pre-infusion, etc. which is why it costs almost ~$800 more than the Gaggia.
As for buying from Amazon or Costco, as far as I know, only Amazon will carry coffeegeek approved products. If you insist on Amazon because of the return policy, make sure Amazon itself is the seller. That limits you to Breville and Gaggia, and perhaps a few other brands, but those are the two you're probably interested in anyways.
I myself am looking at a Breville dual boiler and Baratza Vario combo. The Breville Smart Grinder looks interesting, has Vario-like features for WAY less money. But for me the dealbreaker is the fewer steps of adjustability and supposedly inferior grind compared to the Vario. I know I would get upgraditis with the Smart Grinder, but I believe I'll be more than content with the BDB.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 9:20am Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
I think it is safe to say that most of us here think the BDB has the POTENTIAL to be a good machine. It has all the right boxes checked for sure but as I said above, it is a little early to give it two thumbs up because of the past track history with the parent company.
Your money, do what you want, you might get lucky, it may turn out to be a great starter machine, I guess my luck isn't that good and I prefer to go with the "safe" bet. YMMV!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 3:54pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
calblacksmith Said:
I think it is safe to say that most of us here think the BDB has the POTENTIAL to be a good machine. It has all the right boxes checked for sure but as I said above, it is a little early to give it two thumbs up because of the past track history with the parent company.
Your money, do what you want, you might get lucky, it may turn out to be a great starter machine, I guess my luck isn't that good and I prefer to go with the "safe" bet. YMMV!
So do we hit on a 15 if the dealer is showing a suit?
After scouring more forums last night, I have expanded my choices, albeit still cautious...so here goes.
While the BDB is still at the very top of my list, I have looked into other machines. One of the trade-offs for kitchen space was to offer the wifey some form of eye candy when company comes (Yes, something other than me :) ).
I realized the BDB has all the bells and whistles, but three other machines that I am really considering (all with the E61 brew group for simultaneous steaming and dispensing): - Expobar Office Lever Espresso Machine - Rocket Espresso Cellini Premium Plus - Quick Mill Anita
Figure I can add a PID or Eric's thermo for the three machines mentioned above and be similar in functions to the fancier BDB. What are your opinions with these three machines? And which one would you recommend in terms of reliability and maintenance?
As for grinders, is there a significant difference between the Vario and Virtuoso Preciso? The $150 seems very negligible at this price point (my opinion of-course).
Thanks for your input.
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 4:52pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
glcoffee Said:
After scouring more forums last night, I have expanded my choices, albeit still cautious...so here goes.
While the BDB is still at the very top of my list, I have looked into other machines. One of the trade-offs for kitchen space was to offer the wifey some form of eye candy when company comes (Yes, something other than me :) ).
As others have said, the word "Breville" makes a lot of us very nervous. This is based upon numerous problems [i\with models. That said, "most of us here think the BDB has the POTENTIAL to be a good machine" about sums it up for nearly al the "regulars"/"old-timers" here. "Newbies" seem to be enthusiastic about it, but there are a number of us who prefer to take a wait-and-see attitude: let's see how it's performing after a year or two of serious "real world" usage. If it holds up, then I'll stand up and say Breville has a winner!
glcoffee Said:
. . . three other machines that I am really considering (all with the E61 brew group for simultaneous steaming and dispensing): - Expobar Office Lever Espresso Machine - Rocket Espresso Cellini Premium Plus - Quick Mill Anita
Well, from among that list, I'd opt for either the Rocket or the Quick Mill. Any particular reason why you have selected those three?
glcoffee Said:
As for grinders, is there a significant difference between the Vario and Virtuoso Preciso? The $150 seems very negligible at this price point (my opinion of-course).
I'd get the Baratza Vario, but I'm biased -- I have one. That said, it does seem as though the people who have the Preciso are quick happy with it, too.
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 4:52pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
The Rocket and QuickMill products are proven machines that offer outstanding performance. These machines are built to last. There are reliable vendors backing these machines like Chris Coffee and Seattle Coffee Gear. See the Consumer Reviews for feedback from owners.
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 5:27pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
As others have said, the word "Breville" makes a lot of us very nervous. This is based upon numerous problems with past models. That said, "most of us here think the BDB has the POTENTIAL to be a good machine" about sums it up for nearly al the "regulars"/"old-timers" here. "Newbies" seem to be enthusiastic about it, but there are a number of us who prefer to take a wait-and-see attitude: let's see how it's performing after a year or two of serious "real world" usage. If it holds up, then I'll stand up and say Breville has a winner!
Honestly, it wasn't until I saw this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ahEkNzm_c) which outlined the internals of the Expobar that made me reconsider. Little details such as an copper OPV vs. plastic on the BDB. However, the default features of the BDB such as PID and brew head pressure gauge makes a very good selling point. Hence, why it's still on the top of my list to consider.
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
Well, from among that list, I'd opt for either the Rocket or the Quick Mill. Any particular reason why you have selected those three?
Three main reasons: - The video from WLL as posted above, outlining its beautiful internals - All within a price range that I still fairly comfortable with - The simplistic beauty of these machines are hard to ignore.
As the thread suggests, I only drink espressos with milk and the two criteria for my machine is to make a great espresso and froth milk. While many machines can do this, it really comes down to quality and how much coins you have to play with. Any "newbie" to this hobby will attest, we all want the best machine we can possibly afford. One machine that will be forgiving and allow us to make better espresso, even if we don't have the slightest clue.
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
I'd get the Baratza Vario, but I'm biased -- I have one. That said, it does seem as though the people who have the Preciso are quick happy with it, too.
For the grinder, I really can't justify the difference between the Virtuoso and Virtuoso Preciso. The Preciso is the same exact machine with added "finer tuning." What are main design/engineering flaws you see in the Vario?
dsblv Said:
The Rocket and QuickMill products are proven machines that offer outstanding performance. These machines are built to last. There are reliable vendors backing these machines like Chris Coffee and Seattle Coffee Gear. See the Consumer Reviews for feedback from owners.
Other than the high temp head issue, are there any drastic defect with the Expobar Level?
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
Three main reasons: - The video from WLL as posted above, outlining its beautiful internals - All within a price range that I still fairly comfortable with - The simplistic beauty of these machines are hard to ignore.
Well . . . a couple of suggestions, if you don't mind. One, consider buying direct from the importer of the Quick Mill Anita. (Just a thought.) As for the Expobar, their top-of-the-line prosumer machines (the "Brewtus") are highly regarded and have quite a following. However, as one moves down to the "Office" line, some people have had problems (like me, so take with whatever grains of salt you deem appropriate), and have noticed a drop in build quality. Just food for thought . . .
glcoffee Said:
Any "newbie" to this hobby will attest, we all want the best machine we can possibly afford. One machine that will be forgiving and allow us to make better espresso, even if we don't have the slightest clue.
Yes, well -- as is often said around here, the grinder makes the espresso; the machine is merely a hot water delivery device.
But keep in mind NO machine is so forgiving as to "allow (you) to make better espresso, even if (you) don't have the slightest clue." In other words, you do need to know what you're doing, and while you need not be an "expert" from the moment you begin, your abilities will always be important!
The Four M's of Espresso: 1) the Macinazione is the grinder, and with it, the correct grinding of the coffee beans; 2) the Miscela is the coffee beans/blend itself; 3) the Macchina is the espresso machine; and 4) the Mano is the skilled hand of the barista.
All four are important. Nothing is more important than the grinder. (And without careful attention to #4, all efforts are doomed.)
glcoffee Said:
For the grinder, I really can't justify the difference between the Virtuoso and Virtuoso Preciso. The Preciso is the same exact machine with added "finer tuning."
Do not underestimate the NEED for a suitable, appropriate, and adequate grinder. It is paramount!
Babbie's Rule* of Fifteens: -- Green (unroasted) coffee beans should be roasted within 15 months, or they go stale. -- Roasted coffee beans should be ground within 15 days, or they go stale. -- Ground coffee should be used within 15 minutes, or it goes stale.
glcoffee Said:
Other than the high temp head issue, are there any drastic defect with the Expobar Level?
STG Senior Member Joined: 5 Feb 2012 Posts: 24 Location: Edmonton, Can Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:18pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
Like you, I could not pull the trigger on anything more than the Virtuoso. It is hard to find info on this grinder because the burr was upgraded late 2011 so reviews for the previous model were nothing special when it came to espresso. I would say the pre-2011 would have been inadequate for espresso, due to the major inconsistencies in grinds.
The new burr (Preciso burr) is very consistent. But I guess I can see what people mean about the adjustability. It has 40 steps and usually the 6-9 ranged worked on my SB Barista. So the steps are fairly large, but it will grind fine enough to choke any machine and I suspect one can compensate with tamp and dose. I am also going to try to convert mine to stepless for a bit more adjustability. I think it is well priced for what it is though.
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:46pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
Thank you both for the replies. After some more research, I will go with the Vario afterall.
As for the machine, I have narrowed down to two considerations: Izzo Alex II and Rocket Cellini Evo.
Both being HX machines and available option to be plumbed.
How I weigh the both of them: Pros -Water reservior: Rocket is straight forward, easier to clean and remove. - PID: Izzo. Yes, this feature is debatable and is a whole other discussion by itself. Nonetheless, this feature comes standard on the Izzo and is nice to have (IMO). - Onboard ontrollers: Rocket's Gicar controllers. I come from a technical background and fullly believe in the importance of having tried and true electronic controllers. Hence the "brain" of these machines.
Cons - Water reservior: Cellini has the back flow tubes that goes back into the tank and could be obstructing during yhe removal process; of course this is eliminated when the unit is plumbed.
- PID Lack of PID on the Rocket (Yes, I have read a lot of discussions on this topic.) PID on HX machines can be a pro or con, depending on who you ask. The fact of the matter is that it comes standard on the Izzo.
Aesthetically, I find the Rocket to be slightly more appealing as it pays more attention to little details.
@Jason - Thank you for such a well rounded answer. It reinforces what I have been reading for months on CG.
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 6:45pm Subject: Re: I take my espressos with milk, considering BES900XL (BDB). Opinons?
(I see my fan club has been here before me, but I'm not going to address any of their comments.)
glcoffee Said:
- PID: Izzo. Yes, this feature is debatable and is a whole other discussion by itself. Nonetheless, this feature comes standard on the Izzo and is nice to have (IMO).
I'm curious about why you think the Izzo's PID is a "debatable feature." While it's not as effective to PID an HX as it is to PID all other types of machines, an electronic control circuit using a PID/Solid State Relay/Thermocouple is unquestionably an improvement over a mechanical system using a pressurestat and a mechanical relay on both precision and reliability grounds. Pressurestats wear out and need to be replaced every two or three years by design, which is the main reason that HX fans are so big on user serviceability. They're similar in design to the mechanical ignition systems that cars used to have before electronic ignition was adopted. The electronic circuit costs no more than the pressurestat and works better for longer, so it's a clear win.
Even if you're wedded to the HX for reasons of plumb-in convenience and counter appeal, it seems to me that you're going to enjoy the longer service interval that you'll get with the Izzo compared the ECM. ECM's chrome is dazzling, but reading the owner threads may open your eyes.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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