Gig103 Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2012 Posts: 204 Location: Arizona Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: French press!
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 4:47pm Subject: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
I know I had posted about the VV/CC1 previously, but I had not heard of the Gaggia until reading here (until joining I was going off of SCG crew reviews mostly). I really like that the Classic has the 3-way solenoid valve and a commerical portafilter, and I can buy the upgraded "latte art pannarello" to get closer to a traditional steam arm.
But If I splurge on the CC1, I gain the PID for temperature control, pre infusion, and timed shots. I also get the larger boiler, but since I am looking to make a double espresso in the morning before work, not a milk drink on a regular basis, that is not as big a benefit to me as for others. I also would get a bottomless portafilter.
Based on the two packages I'm looking at (one SCG one WLL) I save $200 with the Gaggia/Preciso combo over the CC1/Preciso combo. From what I read, the actual shots should be pretty similar once dialed in, so is it more features and build quality that I am paying for?
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 5:19pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
CC1 What you gain: 1) PID 2) Pre-infusion 3) The shot timer doesn't really count. It isn't volumetric dosing. Without it you'd spend $1 for a timer for the same function, so I wouldn't really let this impact your decision too much. 4) Thermoblock steam. Doesn't really count if you aren't using milk drinks.
You mention build quality. Not saying CC1 isn't good, but it is yet to be proven. Gaggia, on other hand, has proven good build quality. Steam arm could be upgraded to silvia steam arm, if you used steam arm at all (company, etc)
So for you, you are right in your title: Is a PID worth $200? Only you can answer that question. It is your money, not ours (we'll all say yes, but that doesn't make it the right decision for you). That being said, yes, eventually a PID would be nice, and if you can spare it, I'd say go for it.....
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 8:11pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
In my limited experience, I would say that preinfusion as well as PID brew temperature control are worthy additions to a machine's design. But one difference between the two machines you have mentioned is that the CC1 has a dedicated brew boiler. I do not know if this is true with the CC1, but many dedicated brew boilers do not have to hold space for steam.
Gig103 Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2012 Posts: 204 Location: Arizona Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: French press!
Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012, 8:43pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
frcn Said:
In my limited experience, I would say that preinfusion as well as PID brew temperature control are worthy additions to a machine's design. But one difference between the two machines you have mentioned is that the CC1 has a dedicated brew boiler. I do not know if this is true with the CC1, but many dedicated brew boilers do not have to hold space for steam.
peterkub Senior Member Joined: 1 Aug 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Granger, Indiana, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 7:37am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
I can pitch in about PID. It is a great addition. Just added one to my Gaggia, costed me $40 at ebay (PID, sensor and relay combo), some elbow grease and two hours of my time. If you are less technically inclined you can get a kit for Gaggia for $150 with detailed instruction.
MARIOBARBA Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Posts: 126 Location: MONTREAL CANADA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso DUO Prof TRONIC Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 8:12am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
I know that a PID is all the rage around these Parts, I personally have never felt the need for one. I believe that it takes a very sensitive palate to taste the difference a few degrees would make in an espresso. You can also just stick with less temperature sensitive beans. Others may disagree.
Madurodave Senior Member Joined: 3 Feb 2012 Posts: 141 Location: NH Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso Preciso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: Mr Coffee, perculator Roaster: HotTop B, West Bend Air...
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 9:38am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
MARIOBARBA Said:
I know that a PID is all the rage around these Parts, I personally have never felt the need for one. I believe that it takes a very sensitive palate to taste the difference a few degrees would make in an espresso. You can also just stick with less temperature sensitive beans. Others may disagree.
So far, I have to agree with you on this. Maybe it is my unexperienced palate, but almost every shot I have pulled on my Silvia after Day 1 has been excellent and consistent. My next change is roasting coffee beans at home in a hot air popper. Then after that dies in a few months from abuse maybe an actual home roaster.
So far, my espressos have been VERY tasty and consistent on times and my milk frothing gets better and better every day!
Dave Harley rider, Espresso drinker, Primo XL grill
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:01am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
MARIOBARBA Said:
I know that a PID is all the rage around these Parts, I personally have never felt the need for one. I believe that it takes a very sensitive palate to taste the difference a few degrees would make in an espresso. You can also just stick with less temperature sensitive beans. Others may disagree.
Most knowledgeable persons would disagree.You miss the point of a PID. With a decent machine two degrees is a huge change that can be easily tasted when using good coffee and a good grinder. But a PID's benefit is not being able to tell or adjust to one degree. The benefit of a PID is that it removes the HUGE deadband that the stock button thermostats have. A swing of 10 to 15 degrees can be seen in some machines. If one degree can be tasted in the cup, ten degrees is the difference between coffee and dishwater. The key to good espresso is consistency. That cannot be achieved with inconsistent equipment. Sure, you can time surf, or if you add a digital thermometer with a fast reacting thermocouple and then you can temp surf, but these are stopgap measures that do not deliver the thermal stability that can be had with a PID.
What if your pump worked through a relatively unpredictable range of 122 to 140 PSI? It would give wildly varying levels of espresso quality that would drive you nuts. The stock button "snap" thermostats do just that, but with temperature. A bit more predictable than random, but still too wide a range. It is why the prevailing sentiment is to spend less on an espresso machine than a Silvia and spend more on a grinder. Why? Because the lower price espresso machines work about as well as Silvia, so you might as well try to improve the espresso with a better grinder (which is a more important component than the espresso machine anyway).
So when the CC1 came along and offered a factory PID'd machine with programmable preinfusion and other functions for less than the same price of a PID'd Silvia it caused a good amount of excitement at around $700. Your Ascaso does allow simultaneous brewing and steaming but it costs $1000 and does not have temperature control nor preinfusion. You can see where the CC1 is quite tempting.
Gig103 Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2012 Posts: 204 Location: Arizona Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Vario Drip: French press!
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:57am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
I still like the idea of having the machine on and ready to go in the morning; anything to shave time increases the likelihood I'll use it. That's why I even considered superauto before deciding I wanted better coffee for a few minutes' effort in the morning. That's why I was popping in to ask about the PID and it sounds like if I were to retrofit a Gaggia it would still cost me $200, so "Yes" a PID is worth that much.
I watched a temp surfing video for Miss Silvia, but it's indicator lights seem to be the opposite of the Gaggia (light on = boiler on). Is the Gaggia easy to temperature surf with? I'm hopeless at making decisions and $200 is a lot of fresh roasted coffee I can buy :)
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