I have my CC1 on a timer...I just leave the machine's power switch turned on and program the timer to turn on 30 minutes before I wake up and turn off 30 minutes after I leave in the morning. It heats up just as it should or as if I wasn't using a timer.
Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:40pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
The CC1 is an interesting machine with a great story behind it. If I were in the market for a machine in that price range, I'd be inclined to buy it over the Gaggia simply to support the company and the designer to keep him going toward even better things. Gaggia is only interesting because so many people have them that there's a thriving user community, plentiful replacement parts, and lots of help for tweaking the machine with PIDs, better OPVs and that sort of thing.
But the CC1 already has serious upgrades over standard issue SBDUs so why bother with a machine that needs tweaking unless you're just into that kinda thing?
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 8:23am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
grant862 Said:
I have my CC1 on a timer...I just leave the machine's power switch turned on and program the timer to turn on 30 minutes before I wake up and turn off 30 minutes after I leave in the morning. It heats up just as it should or as if I wasn't using a timer.
Maybe I am wrong then. Because when I had it, I remember I had to press the brew button before the "---" on the screen starts blinking, which means heating. Otherwise, it just does nothing. I extrapolated that and assumed it won't heat up without any input.
If it could be put on timer, I would seriously pitch to go with it, rather than having a new machine and modify it. Unless you're going with a used machine. I wouldn't want to mess up new machine's warranty and putting so much effort only to void it.
But performance wise, apple-to-apple comparison at making espresso, CC1 easily tops up a Gaggia Classic because of CC1's huge brew boiler that is sized close to many commercial machines. The shot timer and preinfusion is also a great help.
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 8:46am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
Looks like this thread is drifting toward a CC1 vs Gaggia Classic theme (which is fine with me). I think the Crossland makes pulling acceptable shots easier for someone with little or no experience but once someone is used to a Classic and is comfortable with temp surfing (and adjusts the OPV), the Classic can pull the same quality shot as the CC1.
If straight shots are your preference then the Classic is a valid choice. You have to spend more than the price of the Crossland to see an improvement in shot quality - once you are comfortable with the process. I have seen the Gaggia Classic selling for under $400 on Amazon:
A $300 spread in price (I know there are bundle deals but those change - my post deals with machine vs machine) is significant but might be worth it if milk is huge and your confidence in your skill level is not strong. Saving $300 over the CC1 for a $400 Classic that you can't pull a good shot from is not a great value either - might be why there is a market for both.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
MARIOBARBA Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Posts: 126 Location: MONTREAL CANADA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso DUO Prof TRONIC Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 8:55am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
frcn Said:
Most knowledgeable persons would disagree.You miss the point of a PID. With a decent machine two degrees is a huge change that can be easily tasted when using good coffee and a good grinder. But a PID's benefit is not being able to tell or adjust to one degree. The benefit of a PID is that it removes the HUGE deadband that the stock button thermostats have. A swing of 10 to 15 degrees can be seen in some machines. If one degree can be tasted in the cup, ten degrees is the difference between coffee and dishwater. The key to good espresso is consistency. That cannot be achieved with inconsistent equipment. Sure, you can time surf, or if you add a digital thermometer with a fast reacting thermocouple and then you can temp surf, but these are stopgap measures that do not deliver the thermal stability that can be had with a PID.
What if your pump worked through a relatively unpredictable range of 122 to 140 PSI? It would give wildly varying levels of espresso quality that would drive you nuts. The stock button "snap" thermostats do just that, but with temperature. A bit more predictable than random, but still too wide a range. It is why the prevailing sentiment is to spend less on an espresso machine than a Silvia and spend more on a grinder. Why? Because the lower price espresso machines work about as well as Silvia, so you might as well try to improve the espresso with a better grinder (which is a more important component than the espresso machine anyway).
So when the CC1 came along and offered a factory PID'd machine with programmable preinfusion and other functions for less than the same price of a PID'd Silvia it caused a good amount of excitement at around $700. Your Ascaso does allow simultaneous brewing and steaming but it costs $1000 and does not have temperature control nor preinfusion. You can see where the CC1 is quite tempting.
I may be new to the making espresso at home thing (first home espresso machine was bought 6 years ago) but I have been drinking good, some may say great, espresso for around 15 years (round here babies are weaned off the boob with wine and coffee). I don't know if that qualifies me as knowledgeable or not, but I can assure you that I do get the point of a PID (to remove a variable in the espresso making work flow that may influence the taste of espresso). My point, is that in my experience, the influence of temperature on the taste of espresso is somewhat exaggerated in that I have never pulled a shot of dishwater with any of the machines I have owned once the dose and grind were nailed down. There may be subtle difference from shot to shot but these have become part of the adventure for me. Also, there are plenty of "good" coffees out there that are not as sensitive to changes in temperature, and in my opinion these are much "better" than more sensitive ones in that they allow a larger range of people with different setups to enjoy them.
As for my machine, you're right, if I had 1000$ to spend I would be looking at a Silvano or an entry level HX machine, but the fact that my machine fell of a proverbial truck and I bought it new for 380$CAD means that I will be quite happy with my deadband for years to come.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 9:09am Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
MARIOBARBA Said:
. Also, there are plenty of "good" coffees out there that are not as sensitive to changes in temperature, and in my opinion these are much "better" than more sensitive ones in that they allow a larger range of people with different setups to enjoy them.
This is why people want more control over their brew temperature. Redbird may be considered a sensitive blend since it tastes like a snickers bar at 199f with and 18g dose, however it is still very tasty at other brew temps, it just won't taste snickery.
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 2:34pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
samuellaw178 Said:
But performance wise, apple-to-apple comparison at making espresso, CC1 easily tops up a Gaggia Classic because of CC1's huge brew boiler that is sized close to many commercial machines................
I'm always surprised when the 3.5oz Gaggia is given equal footing for shot quality in these comparisons. ( I used a Gaggia Espresso for many years) No amount of brass or aluminum can beat the amazing heat capacity of water. I've not used the CC1, but the bigger boiler at least has the potential to deliver much better temperature consistency. (even without a PID). The Gaggia 'temp profile' will limit the type of shot (short) and coffee (tolerant of dropping temps). Also the CC1 is not cycling the boiler to steam temps; another problem for shot quality with SBDU machines.
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 4:40pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
Though it doesn't really apply to me, personally, I am still a bit skeptical about this CC1 praise. Much of it is coming from users who have no first hand experience with this machine. I also find it a bit interesting that Chris' Coffee no longer carries the CC1. Did they run out of stock, or do they no longer feel it is of high enough quality?... just wondering if anyone has any insight into this.
Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012, 4:54pm Subject: Re: Is a PID worth $200 (or, CC1 over a Gaggia Classic)
MARIOBARBA Said:
I don't know if that qualifies me as knowledgeable or not, but I can assure you that I do get the point of a PID (to remove a variable in the espresso making work flow that may influence the taste of espresso).
That's part of the point of a PID, but not all of it. PIDs are solid state control systems that are more reliable than electro-mechanical control systems such as pressurestats, so we're starting to see PIDs in higher-end HX machines where temp control has limited value but reliability is a long standing unresolved problem. You don't need to replace a PID/SSR/thermocouple system every two to three years like you do a mechanical relay/pressure switch system.
It's like the difference between old-school automotive ignition systems where the points had to be replaced every year and the electronic ignitions that outlast all the mechanicals on new cars.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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