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Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Talk me out of...  
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,038
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

It is only "backwards" to someone who sees one as better than the other in the same way as either of these machines are "better" than SBDU machines. Both types of machines can and will produce outstanding shots, they work differently but one is not "better" than the other. It is more about how you LIKE to work. I do take exception when HX people say there machines are BETTER and when the same feelings flow from those who say DB is BETTER than HX.

They are both established commercial quality systems, and as such they are vastly "better" than built to a price SBDU machines but one does not have more "bling" over the other....which ever way you go. How do you like to work and go that direction.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 857
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

Ok so you said talk you out of it so here goes.  There is a bloody da** good reason La Marzocco, Synesso, Kees van der Westen use the DB setup, just saying.

I told you in another thread I would have to consider the Elektra T1 if i had to replace me Duetto and I certainly would consider it. I would probably figure out  I appreciate the Elektra T1 but I just think I would rather appreciate it on someone else's counter and appreciate the thousand bucks in my pocket more :).

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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davethebrewguy
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davethebrewguy
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1,228
Location: The Brewery
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Fiorenzato Bricoletta,...
Grinder: Compak K-6, Baratza Maestro...
Drip: Saeco Renaissance
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

calblacksmith Said:

It is only "backwards" to someone who sees one as better than the other in the same way as either of these machines are "better" than SBDU machines. Both types of machines can and will produce outstanding shots, they work differently but one is not "better" than the other. It is more about how you LIKE to work. I do take exception when HX people say there machines are BETTER and when the same feelings flow from those who say DB is BETTER than HX.

They are both established commercial quality systems, and as such they are vastly "better" than built to a price SBDU machines but one does not have more "bling" over the other....which ever way you go. How do you like to work and go that direction.

Posted January 18, 2012 link

+1 to all of it.
I wouldn't consider going from DB to HX a downgrade, nor would I consider it an upgrade, it is a sidestep. That said, I consider it a sidestep to go from a DB like a Duetto to a 1.5 to 2 liter HX (or vice-versa), the T1 OTOH, with it's 6l boiler, is a monster of a machine and is certainly an upgrade from either of them.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,038
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

Dave, I agree with that also,
This afternoon I had a chance to "upgrade" from my 2.5l boiler single group to a HUGE 3 gp, La Maroco (sp) that was surplussed  from Disneyland.  I was at an equipment auction and I quit bidding on it at $100, it sold for $150 the next bid over mine. I could have kept going and picked it up for about $200, but my kitchen could not take that much "upgrade" even with all the commercial stuff I have in it!

The point is, upgrades are nice but ya gotta know when you hit the point of diminishing returns and the limits of your kitchen. That said, I think I could make room for a T1 if I happened to stumble upon it!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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ryandunlap
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:31pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

davethebrewguy Said:

I wouldn't consider going from DB to HX a downgrade, nor would I consider it an upgrade, it is a sidestep. That said, I consider it a sidestep to go from a DB like a Duetto to a 1.5 to 2 liter HX (or vice-versa), the T1 OTOH, with it's 6l boiler, is a monster of a machine and is certainly an upgrade from either of them.

Posted January 18, 2012 link

"Certainly an upgrade" in what way? What advantage does the larger bolier give you in the cup? (Honest question.) I've wondered if with a larger boiler I could produce better milk for my cappas?
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ryandunlap
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Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:35pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

jwoodyu Said:

There is a bloody da** good reason La Marzocco, Synesso, Kees van der Westen use the DB setup, just saying.

Posted January 18, 2012 link

I've thought about this too.
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ryandunlap
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Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:36pm
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

Many great espresso blends suggest a brew temperature. How can you get this exactness with a HX machine?
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EricBNC
Senior Member
EricBNC
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 1,869
Location: North Carolina
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM Silvano, LP Stradivarius,...
Grinder: K30, Major, Preciso, Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam C30, Bodum Santos...
Drip: Bonavita BV-1800,...
Roaster: Behmor, Melitta, Fresh...
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012, 1:58am
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

Once you figure out the flush it isn't that hard - flush till the steam stops then start counting while continuing to flush. Try 7 seconds - temps should be around 194  - stop the flush - temps will start to climb and will go up approximately a degree a second after that - 6 seconds later (after locking the PF in while counting) at 200 F hit start and pull the shot.

If it has sat a while with the power on (but not pulling a shot) pull a blank shot and then start the process described above.  

The results are pleasing if the coffee is good to start with. : )

 
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,038
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012, 5:53am
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

ryandunlap Said:

Many great espresso blends suggest a brew temperature. How can you get this exactness with a HX machine?

Posted January 18, 2012 link

Time with your machine will quickly get you into the zone and before long, there isn't even going to be much if any thought behind the operation of the machine, add to that, you may like the flavor more from a coffee at a different temp that the roaster recommends. It depends a great deal on the shape of your basket, your dose, your grind and as ONE of many things in the equation, the temp. I suppose there are those who can taste a difference in the coffee with a 1 deg F temp change in brewing..... I can not and freely admit it.

It is the taste in the cup that counts, not what a number on a gauge or digital readout says.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,475
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012, 6:56am
Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
 

ryandunlap Said:

Can anyone talk me out of it moving FROM a dual-boiler TO a HX machine? Isn't that backwards?!

Posted January 18, 2012 link

Why is it "going backwards"?  

Come on, everyone -- say it along with me . . .

There is NO qualitative difference in the cup, which is -- after all -- where it counts!  As with all things, "all else being equal" applies -- that is, the grinder, the quality and freshness of the beans, the skills of the operator.  They -- HX and DB -- are merely two different ways to produce espresso and "god shots," as well as crap, can be made on both!

Let's be serious:  was all espresso $#!+ until the first DB was invented?  No one ever made a "god shot" using an HX?  Come on . . .

davethebrewguy Said:

I wouldn't consider going from DB to HX a downgrade, nor would I consider it an upgrade, it is a sidestep. That said, I consider it a sidestep to go from a DB like a Duetto to a 1.5 to 2 liter HX (or vice-versa), the T1 OTOH, with it's 6l boiler, is a monster of a machine and is certainly an upgrade from either of them.

Posted January 18, 2012 link

+1

ryandunlap Said:

"Certainly an upgrade" in what way? What advantage does the larger bolier give you in the cup? (Honest question.) I've wondered if with a larger boiler I could produce better milk for my cappas?

Posted January 18, 2012 link

As long as "the machine" -- any machine -- has adequate steaming power for your needs, you should be able to produce great steamed milk/microfoam for your drink(s).  The key is plural -- drinks.  I could never exhaust the supply of steam from my boiler no matter how many drinks I was making, 10 in row? 20? 100?  No problem!  Remember that the Alex Duetto is a "prosumer" machine, while the T1 is truly a commercial one.

ryandunlap Said:

Many great espresso blends suggest a brew temperature. How can you get this exactness with a HX machine?

Posted January 18, 2012 link

The key word in that quotation is SUGGEST.  And as with all suggestions, "YMMV" is the rule of the day.  

1)  The hardest thing to do, vis-a-vis temperature surfing, is to DESCRIBE it.  The easiest thing to do is to actually do it!  It quickly becomes second nature, and I don't think about it al all . . .

2)  My experience as a professional wine judge has led me to conclude a great many things about the ability of humans to taste, to discern and distinguish subtle variations.  And while it certainly is true that some roasters will suggest a brewing temperature of 201.5 for 27 seconds yielding 1.75 ounces, I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference if the result was 1.8 ounces, or 26 seconds, or 202 . . .

Again, YMMV, but . . .

Cheers,
Jason

P.S.  Ask JonR.  He got rid of his GS/3 for a Faema Legend, IIRC.  Ask him if he thinks he went "backwards."

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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