calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:41pm Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
It is only "backwards" to someone who sees one as better than the other in the same way as either of these machines are "better" than SBDU machines. Both types of machines can and will produce outstanding shots, they work differently but one is not "better" than the other. It is more about how you LIKE to work. I do take exception when HX people say there machines are BETTER and when the same feelings flow from those who say DB is BETTER than HX.
They are both established commercial quality systems, and as such they are vastly "better" than built to a price SBDU machines but one does not have more "bling" over the other....which ever way you go. How do you like to work and go that direction.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 704 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 8:49pm Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
Ok so you said talk you out of it so here goes. There is a bloody da** good reason La Marzocco, Synesso, Kees van der Westen use the DB setup, just saying.
I told you in another thread I would have to consider the Elektra T1 if i had to replace me Duetto and I certainly would consider it. I would probably figure out I appreciate the Elektra T1 but I just think I would rather appreciate it on someone else's counter and appreciate the thousand bucks in my pocket more :).
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 9:07pm Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
calblacksmith Said:
It is only "backwards" to someone who sees one as better than the other in the same way as either of these machines are "better" than SBDU machines. Both types of machines can and will produce outstanding shots, they work differently but one is not "better" than the other. It is more about how you LIKE to work. I do take exception when HX people say there machines are BETTER and when the same feelings flow from those who say DB is BETTER than HX.
They are both established commercial quality systems, and as such they are vastly "better" than built to a price SBDU machines but one does not have more "bling" over the other....which ever way you go. How do you like to work and go that direction.
+1 to all of it. I wouldn't consider going from DB to HX a downgrade, nor would I consider it an upgrade, it is a sidestep. That said, I consider it a sidestep to go from a DB like a Duetto to a 1.5 to 2 liter HX (or vice-versa), the T1 OTOH, with it's 6l boiler, is a monster of a machine and is certainly an upgrade from either of them.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 9:25pm Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
Dave, I agree with that also, This afternoon I had a chance to "upgrade" from my 2.5l boiler single group to a HUGE 3 gp, La Maroco (sp) that was surplussed from Disneyland. I was at an equipment auction and I quit bidding on it at $100, it sold for $150 the next bid over mine. I could have kept going and picked it up for about $200, but my kitchen could not take that much "upgrade" even with all the commercial stuff I have in it!
The point is, upgrades are nice but ya gotta know when you hit the point of diminishing returns and the limits of your kitchen. That said, I think I could make room for a T1 if I happened to stumble upon it!
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
ryandunlap Senior Member Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 104 Location: Syracuse, NY
Posted Wed Jan 18, 2012, 9:31pm Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
davethebrewguy Said:
I wouldn't consider going from DB to HX a downgrade, nor would I consider it an upgrade, it is a sidestep. That said, I consider it a sidestep to go from a DB like a Duetto to a 1.5 to 2 liter HX (or vice-versa), the T1 OTOH, with it's 6l boiler, is a monster of a machine and is certainly an upgrade from either of them.
"Certainly an upgrade" in what way? What advantage does the larger bolier give you in the cup? (Honest question.) I've wondered if with a larger boiler I could produce better milk for my cappas?
Posted Thu Jan 19, 2012, 2:58am Subject: Re: Talk me out of going FROM a dual-boiler TO a heat exchanger (the Elektra T1)
Once you figure out the flush it isn't that hard - flush till the steam stops then start counting while continuing to flush. Try 7 seconds - temps should be around 194 - stop the flush - temps will start to climb and will go up approximately a degree a second after that - 6 seconds later (after locking the PF in while counting) at 200 F hit start and pull the shot.
If it has sat a while with the power on (but not pulling a shot) pull a blank shot and then start the process described above.
The results are pleasing if the coffee is good to start with. : )
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Time with your machine will quickly get you into the zone and before long, there isn't even going to be much if any thought behind the operation of the machine, add to that, you may like the flavor more from a coffee at a different temp that the roaster recommends. It depends a great deal on the shape of your basket, your dose, your grind and as ONE of many things in the equation, the temp. I suppose there are those who can taste a difference in the coffee with a 1 deg F temp change in brewing..... I can not and freely admit it.
It is the taste in the cup that counts, not what a number on a gauge or digital readout says.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
There is NO qualitative difference in the cup, which is -- after all -- where it counts! As with all things, "all else being equal" applies -- that is, the grinder, the quality and freshness of the beans, the skills of the operator. They -- HX and DB -- are merely two different ways to produce espresso and "god shots," as well as crap, can be made on both!
Let's be serious: was all espresso $#!+ until the first DB was invented? No one ever made a "god shot" using an HX? Come on . . .
davethebrewguy Said:
I wouldn't consider going from DB to HX a downgrade, nor would I consider it an upgrade, it is a sidestep. That said, I consider it a sidestep to go from a DB like a Duetto to a 1.5 to 2 liter HX (or vice-versa), the T1 OTOH, with it's 6l boiler, is a monster of a machine and is certainly an upgrade from either of them.
"Certainly an upgrade" in what way? What advantage does the larger bolier give you in the cup? (Honest question.) I've wondered if with a larger boiler I could produce better milk for my cappas?
As long as "the machine" -- any machine -- has adequate steaming power for your needs, you should be able to produce great steamed milk/microfoam for your drink(s). The key is plural -- drinks. I could never exhaust the supply of steam from my boiler no matter how many drinks I was making, 10 in row? 20? 100? No problem! Remember that the Alex Duetto is a "prosumer" machine, while the T1 is truly a commercial one.
ryandunlap Said:
Many great espresso blends suggest a brew temperature. How can you get this exactness with a HX machine?
The key word in that quotation is SUGGEST. And as with all suggestions, "YMMV" is the rule of the day.
1) The hardest thing to do, vis-a-vis temperature surfing, is to DESCRIBE it. The easiest thing to do is to actually do it! It quickly becomes second nature, and I don't think about it al all . . .
2) My experience as a professional wine judge has led me to conclude a great many things about the ability of humans to taste, to discern and distinguish subtle variations. And while it certainly is true that some roasters will suggest a brewing temperature of 201.5° for 27 seconds yielding 1.75 ounces, I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference if the result was 1.8 ounces, or 26 seconds, or 202° . . .
Again, YMMV, but . . .
Cheers, Jason
P.S. Ask JonR. He got rid of his GS/3 for a Faema Legend, IIRC. Ask him if he thinks he went "backwards."
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