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Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
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carz07
Senior Member
carz07
Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Philippines
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Bodum Bistro,...
Drip: V60, Phin, Bonmac, Ame. Drip
Posted Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:50pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

BubbaDude Said:

Under-extracted is sour, over-extracted is bitter. The three variables are the ratio of wet to dry, the temperature, and and the time of the pull (determined by the grind.)

More extraction comes from lower wet/dry ratio, higher temp, and finder grind.

But some beans are just bad, it may come down to that.

Posted December 12, 2012 link

correct me if im wrong but this slight sting i would say it overextracted, as i tried to taste faster flow and it was sour to my taste but this one is not sour, so i assume this is bitter, i also tasted the longer pull, like tasting the extreme so i would know, and this is similar to the longer pull, and this is faint sting.

so should i change the temp higher? or lower?

 
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carz07
Senior Member
carz07
Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Philippines
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Bodum Bistro,...
Drip: V60, Phin, Bonmac, Ame. Drip
Posted Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:30pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

carz07 Said:

correct me if im wrong but this slight sting i would say it overextracted, as i tried to taste faster flow and it was sour to my taste but this one is not sour, so i assume this is bitter, i also tasted the longer pull, like tasting the extreme so i would know, and this is similar to the longer pull, and this is faint sting.

so should i change the temp higher? or lower?

Posted December 12, 2012 link

i lowered the shot time to 30sec instead of 32sec, it made a 28g wet, and the sting has lowered, but i still taste it faint

should i do temp? i dont want to lower shot time as it will lower wet
what should i do with the temp? higher or lower? im currently at 200

 
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MerleApAmber
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Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Atlanta
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900
Grinder: Baratza Preciso + Esatto
Vac Pot: Yuma
Drip: bah-humbug
Roaster: Hot Top 2K P
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:26am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

dagoat Said:

i prefer that the things going wrong with this machine are the same things people fix in the older steel/copper/brass machines--like the industry-standard ulka pump, OPV's and three-way valves. they _might_ even be replaceable by more robust, commercial-grade kit. didn't shapeshifter/nic replace her OPV with a proper brass one? anyhow, better this stuff than proprietary PCB's and microcontrollers that might be unavailable to the general public, and/or might require flash programming or such in order to work after replacement--like a replacement microchip key for your car.  i worry a little more about the err1 and err2 messages.

anyhow, my fingers remain crossed that motivated, off-warranty users will rise to the challenge--like they did with the opv initially.  along those lines, i worry a LOT that so VERY many BDB owners are espresso newbies who don't know the difference between an OPV and a 3-way valve.  it's almost as if they wandered into williams sonoma and saw this cool machine and were sold on it, THEN began to learn about espresso--like the folks who bought into kitchen aid's sexy-but-sucky espresso machine and grinder 5-7 years ago.  it was avoided in droves by experts and bought in droves by newbies.  i see that happening here too.  and it's worriesome because i'm pretty sure the BDB blows the kitchen aid double boiler espresso machine clean off the map.  nothing wrong with newbies.  you're all very welcome, of course.  but where are the intermediates and beyond to bring a little balance to this machine?  who's going to be "scottie" and figure out how to get the warp drive running again on the off-warranty BDB?

-peter

Posted December 12, 2012 link

Peter,
I'll stand up and rise as a newbie blown up through the stem of my first mocca pot. My claim to 'experience' with espresso is very much as you note.

Coming up from the Sanka cup in my parents house, navy percolator and two fisted drinking, drip maker, Gevalia club, pour-through, on/off steam boiler "espresso machine", mocca pot, french press, Krupps HX pump, and /i then /i discovering my "first" real espresso machine at Starbucks - the Barista ~!~ Yep, I now recognize pressure release needle valves are so Not the demonstration of extraction brewing!  

So I totally get what you are saying about us newbies showing up on the shores here when; after discovering just recently I'd fallen into the 'good enough' crowd of prepackaged, ese, craptastic products foisted upon us at the work place.  And worse, being so overwhelmed in my personal life and schedule that a Tassimo was honestly gratefully acceptable here in my own home!  

When I found Breville actually made a true espresso pressure driven system which combined all the real important win items on an old timers punch list of need to haves, I was amazed.  Sadly, this also points out the difference in economic class one had to aspire to, or achieve, to have ability to release sufficient discretionary income the 'old way' vs. what is today a tipping point priced piece of equipment.  Interesting thing about us newbies coming up through the ranks these days... we still fall pray to the 'nope, that grinder I have simply isn't enough' experience; or, 'nope, that store bought roasted coffee I liked yesterday simply doesn't make it anymore - I've got to roast my own!; or, 'nope, just drawing a shot without weighing the charge in, dose out, metering the time to extract, time to lips, time to separation of the crema to liquid...

Anyway, regardless of my brilliant run-along sentences above... I get your point: We simply don't know just how good modern engineering, materials, design, and design goals as implemented at Breville will stand the test of time.  

I too pray, the insides of these devices allow ease of access to change components out on failure.  I hope we do have people in the user base who are just tweaked enough to design, develop, and prove better modifications to the process as offered by Breville. And I surely hope Breville finds this iteration an honest to goodness run away best seller. One which requires improvements not complete revamps. One which they can manufacture far into the future, every additional day gaining profits on the initial investment.  Maybe even unto the point the price falls by half to the new buyer and the company still sees the same profit point after production and delivery.

You see, looking at all the previous designs and models out there today, most of those have trade offs and idiosyncrasies too... the only reason they have stood the test of time is - they're too damn expensive to consider as disposable throw away devices which can be written down on the budget and easily. Used to be, that was a sign of handcrafted excellence; today, that isn't always a win over CAD/CAM which is implemented to the nth degree.  

Of course, who's to say Breville or their successor doesn't come up with a new design 3 to 5 years from now that one ups, or ten-ups the BES900xl - at an even better price point?  If I could afford it and found it Ben Franklins my old Besty to her grave - ya, I'd jump ship in an instant!  In the mean time, I am (as you) LOVING the experience of super crema, amazing SO's roasted right here at home, and sharing the lust filled head trip with everyone who's interested.

Warmest,
- Chris
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:31am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

carz07 Said:

i lowered the shot time to 30sec instead of 32sec, it made a 28g wet, and the sting has lowered, but i still taste it faint

should i do temp? i dont want to lower shot time as it will lower wet
what should i do with the temp? higher or lower? im currently at 200

Posted December 12, 2012 link

I'd try 198.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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carz07
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carz07
Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Philippines
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Bodum Bistro,...
Drip: V60, Phin, Bonmac, Ame. Drip
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:49am
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

BubbaDude Said:

I'd try 198.

Posted December 13, 2012 link

i did 198 to 195 and still faint astringent taste. does temp have huge impact per 1 step or not?

 
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BubbaDude
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BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:11pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

carz07 Said:

i did 198 to 195 and still faint astringent taste. does temp have huge impact per 1 step or not?

Posted December 13, 2012 link

It's hard for me to taste a one degree difference, but your palate may be more sensitive. At this stage, you're probably just tasting what's in the bean. What kind of bean are you pulling?

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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JJC
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JJC
Joined: 2 Apr 2012
Posts: 56
Location: Santa Barbara
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville 900Xl, Saeco...
Grinder: Compak K3
Roaster: Behmor, Nesco
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 3:36pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

Mainly a reply to DaGoat and MerleApAmber as well as description of problems with the BDB.

First, for the reasons many have elaborated, this is an amazing machine and one that would be difficult to replace at any price.

However, having had two of them fail on me after a few months of use, my faith in their longevity is not high.
In Breville's favor they quickly replaced both machines.
After the first one they gave me no feedback on why this happened or how to avoid it, though the machine went back to them. These machines lasted 2 to 3 months each before they stopped pumping properly.

After the second, and at my request, they looked at both machines and decided that the water I was using was damaging the sensors. (I have well water and use a sodium exchange water softener) They told me that softened water wasn't good and that regular "drinking water" was best. They also advised that RO water might interfere with the proper operation of the machines but would not damage them, unlike the softened water.

The instructions with the machine give no cautions about water other than not using RO, saying that the cartridges will take care of everything else. Apparently this isn't the case. As my warranty runs out in April, I am apprehensive about this issue and how easy/expensive replacement of the sensors would be.

So, I love the machine, but every time I use it I am waiting for the pump to fail again. Kind of takes the joy off having it.
The bad news is that I'm so spoiled by this machine that any others at any price look like a sacrifice going forward. So, I'm holding on counting on my neighbor DaGoat to work with me to repair it if its out of warranty or on Breville to have a workable repair system in place.

JJ
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carz07
Senior Member
carz07
Joined: 20 Oct 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Philippines
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Bodum Bistro,...
Drip: V60, Phin, Bonmac, Ame. Drip
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 6:47pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

BubbaDude Said:

It's hard for me to taste a one degree difference, but your palate may be more sensitive. At this stage, you're probably just tasting what's in the bean. What kind of bean are you pulling?

Posted December 13, 2012 link

i have a pressurize machine here and i use it to check the beans, when i tasted it it dont get that sting, im talking about.
how can i fix this?, im not pulling hair now, im im just looking blank straight at the machine hehehehe please help thanks

 
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dagoat
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 320
Location: santa barbara, ca
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola, BDB...
Grinder: baratza vario
Vac Pot: aeropress
Drip: manual
Roaster: cafe rosto
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 7:10pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

First,  Chris,  you dont sound like a newbie.   A little false modesty perchance?

Jimbo!  No worries mate.  Somehow we'll muddle through this together.  Since mine is already off warranty I wont mind digging into it.  As I said before, I'm pretty comfortable with the mechanical bits.  I'm pretty comfortable with circuit boards too as long as they don't require proprietary flashing that you and I could never do on our own.

-peter
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BubbaDude
Senior Member
BubbaDude
Joined: 8 Jan 2011
Posts: 518
Location: Frisco Bay
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: Hottop 2KB
Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 7:15pm
Subject: Re: Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL Owners Thread
 

carz07 Said:

how can i fix this?

Posted December 13, 2012 link

Beats me.

 
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
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