Life changes have required me make sacrifices over these last few years with regards to my espresso equipment. I have recently been fortunate enough to get some new equipment and the new BDB caught my attention... My plan is to start the search for another used Mazzer, but in the meantime, the Smart Grinder seems to be performing better than I expected...
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 10:04am Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
SHCoffee Said:
I hardly view my purchase of the BDB as anything particularly important. Fun, yes. Revelatory (the word you were probably searching for), hardly. I probably don't really qualify as a Coffee Geek in this regard. (I will argue with you to end of time about the superiority of Labradors versus Goldens as working dogs (a bit of an exageration). But, I really don't care about what brand coffee grinder you use.) My point has simply been that there seems to be a number of people on the forum and in this thread who are desperate to point out whatever perceived demerits there may be concerning the machine. Frequently these posts are coming from those who have never used the machine or have first hand experience with Brevilles at all. After reading about Breville's reputation in the espresso market two or three times, I think we get the point: Caveat emptor. Got it. Beyond that, reiterating the point ad nauseum really becomes akin dropping a turd in the punch bowl as they say.
Now, I realize that every forum has its own peculiar culture and set of posting norms. I've just been surprised by the level of "snark" and pedantry on this one . . . particularly because we're talking about COFFEE.
Which brings me to your particular argumentum ad hominem. Pretending to have insight in the perception of others is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. I'm wondering whether you're familiar with the concept of tranference.
Look, I really don't want to pick a fight with anybody. I just want to discuss the new Breville and how to use it to make the best espresso possible.
At the risk of speaking for others, I think the source of the "reiterated points" is related to this: Few things are more irritating that someone who asks for advice, then not only ignores said advice, but tells you it's wrong. (Pre-emptive note: I'm not referring to any specific people at all with that statement.)
This is a forum that people come to to explicitly solicit purchasing advice from the knowledgeable regulars that have years of experience in machine buying behind them. That's what we do here, and our general goal is to help others learn from our (sometimes expensive) prior purchasing mistakes and lessons learned to help them get a machine that suits their needs well, is a good value, and gets them on their way to a greater appreciation of espresso. This machine, more than many others has spurred an onslaught of new members who arrive with the preconceived notion that the BDB is the best machine ever for its price. Yet they still come to solicit advice on if it's REALLY the best for the price. When they are informed that there are serious concerns about it and that it may well not be the best for them or as good a value compared to to other machines as it appears on the surface, there are a number of these new members who get upset and defensive and start complaining about all the bashing of this otherwise exceptional machine and that the snobby person whom they solicited advice from must not like it because it isn't shiny enough, etc. So it presents a circle of the forum regulars having to constantly point out the flaws or value limitations to ensure that the preconceived notions don't end up repeated as gospel by those who are busy plugging their ears. (Again, I'm not referring to any specific incidents, people, or conversations...just a general pattern I've observed from the related threads to this machine.)
The sad part is that the advice isn't a matter of putting down a cheaper unit in favor of "more elite ones"....the advice is a statement that other machines at the same price for many people ARE the "more elite" ones :) The advice most of the regulars have been giving is that there are other same-price machines that may represent a better total value, which is a very different thing than patently bashing a particular machine.
That also isn't to say that the BDB isn't the right machine for a given user as well, and for those that have one, there's certainly no harm in trying to learn its ins & outs.
At the risk of trying Jason's car analogies one too many times: If you ask a group of car nuts who all have cars ranging from Civics to Ferraris if the Chevy Volt is a good buy, and they all tell you they're REALLY unsure about the value and reliability of it....the fact that they've never owned one may not be coincidental, it may be because they understand the topic enough to not actually want to spend their money on it ;) "Caveat emptor", yes....but don't say we didn't warn you... :) Some BDB owners will have a long happy life with their purchase. So will some Volt owners....
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:11am Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
You said this:
SHCoffee Said:
dagoat: Welcome to the thread and the hating. The breathless, hysterical criticisms of the machine, particularly by those who haven't touched much less used one certains do seem odd to me as well. All you have to do is read the topics of other threads to realize the other machines -- including those costing far more than the BDB and bearing marquee names -- have "problems" including design issues that make the OPV mis-callibration seem rather mild. My sense is that some of the people dumping on the BDB wouldn't dare make similar (uninformed and overblown) statements about an Italian machine costing three or four times as much for fear that they might be seen as rubes on this forum. But that's just me. . .
Uh oh. Have I written too much? I'm sorry. The emperor's clothes are splendid. The emperor's clothes are splendid. The emperor's clothes are splendid. ; )
Here is what it means - you act like spending a grand on your kit is so wise that anyone not singing praises about your act is all the crap you put in the first sentence of your quote above. Then you reference a story about people lying to themselves in regard to your perceived attitude of how this forum's members feel about your purchase.
In reality most don't feel anything at all about the purchase but would consider your comment to be trolling.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:26am Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
I'm not sure Breville is recommending that people do this adjustment themselves. In fact, there seems to be the fear among some that doing this will void their warranty. Anyway, it seems a variety of owners here in this forum and elsewhere are sending in their machines for adjustment or exchange. So, my point still stands - I would be unhappy to spend $1000 on something and then immediately ship it away for adjustment or exchange. But you and others may feel this is not a big deal. No problems then - best of luck to all BDB users.
jasonhilton Said:
Not being calibrated is not the same as defective. The BDB still makes great shots even with the non-calibrated OPV. Did you know the NS Oscar doesn't even have an OPV? Anyone who can use a screwdriver and needle nose pliers can adjust the OPV in less than 15 minutes, no need to send it to Breville.
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:47am Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
So, where are we with the BDB?
I've been reading here, and HB and the Aussie CS forum and the s/n ratio over this machine has been awful. Sooo after doing my best to separate wheat from the chaff, it looks to me to boil down to this: 1) it makes good espresso 2) probably doesn't steam fast enough for a shop environment 3) users are reporting amazing quality microfoam 4) it's construction, like that of the vario, is more home-appliance-grade construction, so long term durability remains in question 5) Breville has a reputation for poor customer service 6) Breville IS supporting this machine... so far. There are not enough data to tell if their commitment is for long term
Does that about sum it up?
Disclaimer: I just ordered one before the WS sale ended. I was going to get a Vivaldi II, but if after the 90 day trial period, I decide I like the BDB, the Viv will have to wait.
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 12:36pm Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
dagoat Said:
I've been reading here, and HB and the Aussie CS forum and the s/n ratio over this machine has been awful. Sooo after doing my best to separate wheat from the chaff, it looks to me to boil down to this: 1) it makes good espresso 2) probably doesn't steam fast enough for a shop environment 3) users are reporting amazing quality microfoam 4) it's construction, like that of the vario, is more home-appliance-grade construction, so long term durability remains in question 5) Breville has a reputation for poor customer service 6) Breville IS supporting this machine... so far. There are not enough data to tell if their commitment is for long term
Peter, here are my comments -- to be taken with whatever grains of salt you deem appropriate.
I'm not sure #2 is fair, in that the machine isn't designed for commercial use, and so not being capable of keeping up with commercial demand is sort of irrelevant, IMHO.
I've only seen one comment here -- please keep in mind this is "off the top of my head" and so I may very well be wrong -- that the espresso from this "BDB" rivals that of a prosumer machine. So, there is a part of me that wants to say "good espresso as opposed to what?" OTOH, it does certainly seem that most people who own one are happy with the espresso quality so far. Same goes for the quality (but not necessarily the time) of the steamed milk.
#5 isn't up for debate, I don't think, although I believe I'm safe in saying we all hope that will improve. As for #4and #6, they sort of all roll into one for me. If Breville doesn't support "long term," they are a worse company than I thought and it reinforces #5. But long-term durability is also an issue where "only time will tell," and so I still remain somewhat skeptical/cautious about this machine.
The good news is that most people seem happy with it so far. OTOH, there is that natural tendency to be overly enthusiastic about an expensive new toy, so a few grains of salt are probably in order . . .
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 3:32pm Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
EricBNC Said:
You said this:
So I posted this:
Here is what it means - you act like spending a grand on your kit is so wise that anyone not singing praises about your act is all the crap you put in the first sentence of your quote above. Then you reference a story about people lying to themselves in regard to your perceived attitude of how this forum's members feel about your purchase.
In reality most don't feel anything at all about the purchase but would consider your comment to be trolling.
I've offended you when I truly did not mean to. (Heck, you're the one who graciously pointed out the 30% coupon!)
On the other hand, accusing me of trolling is a bit over the top. Nor is it fair to (mis)characterize my "Self-Perception". I have not claimed or implied that the BDB is the Holy Grail of coffee or even that it's the best bargain on the market. I haven't and won't say it's the best choice for any other person. I absolutely haven't stated or implied that anybody who doesn't rush out and buy a BDB is a fool. (BTW: I don't see that anyone else has made that claim for that matter or that anybody has asked for but ignored the advice of anybody.) I have simply reported my own (largely positive) experience and noted that reading through this thread I have seen a lot of negativity: Repetition of negative issues (some clearly legitimate) together with the exaggeration of other issues together with some pretty silly comments by those without first hand experience. It's just not something I've seen on other fora and it is not something I've seen in threads on this forum concerning the marquee brands. My allusion to the emperor's new clothes was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on this point (and not an insult). Alas, I apparently failed.
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 3:42pm Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
SHCoffee Said:
On the other hand, accusing me of trolling is a bit over the top. Nor is it fair to (mis)characterize my "Self-Perception". I have not claimed or implied that the BDB is the Holy Grail of coffee or even that it's the best bargain on the market. I haven't and won't say it's the best choice for any other person....My allusion to the emperor's new clothes was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on this point (and not an insult). Alas, I apparently failed.
Eric has been bashing the BDB sight unseen for several months now, so don't take his attacks on you personally. There are a number of people who feel threatened by the BDB and they've been lashing out on this thread for some time. The issue, as I understand it, is that they spent $2500 or more on a legacy espresso machine and were ridiculed by their wives/girlfriends/partners for making such extravagant purchases for what amounts to a kitchen appliance. "What kind of man spends $2500 on a coffee pot?" is the general complaint.
Along comes the BDB which does a better job than their ridicule-maker and they can see they're in for a new round of abuse if the thing pans out. So naturally they want to avoid that fate.
Like I said, don't take it personally.
"I've Scaced many HX/E61 machines, seeing shot variances of up to 8-10F or more. [The BDB] stays within 1F." - Mark Prince
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011, 3:46pm Subject: Re: It has arrived - Breville Dual Boiler BES900XL!
BubbaDude Said:
. . . There are a number of people who feel threatened by the BDB and they've been lashing out on this thread for some time. The issue, as I understand it, is that they spent $2500 or more on a legacy espresso machine and were ridiculed by their wives/girlfriends/partners for making such extravagant purchases for what amounts to a kitchen appliance. "What kind of man spends $2500 on a coffee pot?" is the general complaint.
Along comes the BDB which does a better job than their ridicule-maker and they can see they're in for a new round of abuse if the thing pans out. So naturally they want to avoid that fate.
"You can write down how to make the perfect cup of coffee. But to make it really good, you have to play something fictional, you have to dress up, you have to think, This is the most important thing."
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